The State of American Soldiers

[Belial]

I've been watching several documentaries lately, namely "The Ground Truth - After The Killing Ends" and am wondering how everyone around here view the American Soldier?

I think like this are not as uncommon as we would like to think. Maybe not the actual deeds, but the thoughts that soldier expressed are sickening.

"I hated Iraqis, your honor," Barker said in court. "They can smile at you, then shoot you in your face without even thinking about it."

Its some pretty fucked up shit.

[margot]

I think it's because a lot of the soldiers don't really believe in the war because it has no noble cause. Many people who join the army do it because they have nothing better to do or need college money, etc. I watch documentaries on the Revolutinary war and especially the civil war and there was so much honor and pride in the men who fought for something they believed in so strongly, sometimes, it is really moving and beautiful.

[Ceraziefish]

I think a big part of it is what they do... I mean, a perfectly good person could join the military and the military trains them to be a heartless killing machine. Obviously there's going to be horrible drawbacks. We saw that sort of thing happen all the time in Vietnam. The soldiers are trained to be really aggressive all the time and then they do exactly that.

It's really too bad...

[thebornotaku]

I think it's because a lot of the soldiers don't really believe in the war because it has no noble cause. Many people who join the army do it because they have nothing better to do or need college money, etc. I watch documentaries on the Revolutinary war and especially the civil war and there was so much honor and pride in the men who fought for something they believed in so strongly, sometimes, it is really moving and beautiful.

I personally find World War Two enthralling due to many factors, but yeah, the feeling of honor that the soldiers must have felt and the noble cause they fought for is one of the large factors.

I think a big part of it is what they do... I mean, a perfectly good person could join the military and the military trains them to be a heartless killing machine. Obviously there's going to be horrible drawbacks. We saw that sort of thing happen all the time in Vietnam. The soldiers are trained to be really aggressive all the time and then they do exactly that.

I must disagree, training a person to become a killing machine may have it's drawbacks, yes, but they're not guaranteed. I know a guy who fought in WWII, we call him Pappy (per his request), and he was one of the Soldiers who fought at the Battle of the Bulge, and there's nothing obviously wrong with him, either mentally from the training or from the mental stress of fighting at the Battle of the Bulge. As far as everybody that knows him knows, he's just your average WWII Veteran (Not that WWII Vets are particularly average), and a man who's proud to have served his country.

[Belial]

I must disagree, training a person to become a killing machine may have it's drawbacks, yes, but they're not guaranteed. I know a guy who fought in WWII, we call him Pappy (per his request), and he was one of the Soldiers who fought at the Battle of the Bulge, and there's nothing obviously wrong with him, either mentally from the training or from the mental stress of fighting at the Battle of the Bulge. As far as everybody that knows him knows, he's just your average WWII Veteran (Not that WWII Vets are particularly average), and a man who's proud to have served his country.

The training that US soldiers receive pre-WWII vs. post-WWII is totally different. WWII Veterans are average men who served their country in what they perceived as a time of need. Vietnam era soldiers and later have been totally broken down and then taught from the ground up to kill without thought or mercy.

[thebornotaku]

The training that US soldiers receive pre-WWII vs. post-WWII is totally different. WWII Veterans are average men who served their country in what they perceived as a time of need. Vietnam era soldiers and later have been totally broken down and then taught from the ground up to kill without thought or mercy.

If this is so (And, now that I think about it, it makes sense), then the US Armed Forces should stop and think about the other possible ramifications of this training (such as, oh, raping and killing Iraqis) and either re-consider their training methods or take other measures to ensure that soldiers won't do things like that.

Obviously, if something's going wrong, there's a fault in the system, be it trainer or trainee, but it should be rooted out and eliminated regardless.

[Belial]

If this is so (And, now that I think about it, it makes sense), then the US Armed Forces should stop and think about the other possible ramifications of this training (such as, oh, raping and killing Iraqis) and either re-consider their training methods or take other measures to ensure that soldiers won't do things like that.

Obviously, if something's going wrong, there's a fault in the system, be it trainer or trainee, but it should be rooted out and eliminated regardless.

They aren't going to rethink it because as far as they're concerned it works. Our military is the most well trained, well armed weapon of war this world has ever seen. Civilian casualties are not any sort of moral problem, merely a PR speedbump.

[thebornotaku]

They aren't going to rethink it because as far as they're concerned it works. Our military is the most well trained, well armed weapon of war this world has ever seen. Civilian casualties are not any sort of moral problem, merely a PR speedbump.

Touche.

[margot]

I wonder what happened to us after WWII! It's like society just went on such a sudden decline. A lot of Japanese feel the same way, that after America took over Japan they inflicted the Japanese with the meaninglessness of modern American life. I wonder what was meaningful until the 50s? Was it honor and Shintoism etc?? Of course Buddhism believes that life is meaningless but that that's not a bad thing at all, it's only bad because we're taught to see it that way. It reminds me of "we think we're better because we create all these problems for ourselves, but we're the ones who can't take care of our own children or anything." and is that true or not?

[Belial]

I wonder what happened to us after WWII! It's like society just went on such a sudden decline. A lot of Japanese feel the same way, that after America took over Japan they inflicted the Japanese with the meaninglessness of modern American life. I wonder what was meaningful until the 50s? Was it honor and Shintoism etc?? Of course Buddhism believes that life is meaningless but that that's not a bad thing at all, it's only bad because we're taught to see it that way. It reminds me of "we think we're better because we create all these problems for ourselves, but we're the ones who can't take care of our own children or anything." and is that true or not?

Militarily, the difference between Pre and Post WWII is pretty clear. The bourgeoisie decided that they could make with the Military Industrial Complex. They designed and sold weapons to a government that had terrified itself with the idea of a conflict with the USSR. These demagouges convinced the entire nation that its okay to spend upwards of $466 Billion (2007 projected US defense budget) to defend ourselves from phantoms. Thats more than the budgets of the next 14 biggest spending nations combined!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_budg...e_United_States

[Poophy]

In terms of the original topic, let me just say this, rape and murder occur here in this country every day, so why is it surprising that if you take a large number of people form America and send them somewhere else that rape and murder will occur.

Also, specifically talking about rape, consider this…. You’re a 21 year old male, who has just been told that you can not have sex for the next 8 months, your even put in a situation where you are likely unable to masturbate. Now this in itself creates a lot of tension…

On top of that, you have to deal with the fact that you cant trust the people that your trying to protect. If a kid walks up to you, you cant be sure of he wants to see if you have some candy, or if he has a bomb on his back that’s about to blow you both to hell…

Note: this is one of the main things that I believe changed after WW2. in ww2, they knew that the German solders were trying to kill them, not (for the most part anyway) civilians, meaning, they could distinguish guy in a German uniform as a threat and a guy in civilian clothing as a noncombatant.

[GummyBearOfDoom]

The training that US soldiers receive pre-WWII vs. post-WWII is totally different. WWII Veterans are average men who served their country in what they perceived as a time of need. Vietnam era soldiers and later have been totally broken down and then taught from the ground up to kill without thought or mercy.

My father served in WWII, yes I know my family is weird. Anyways no they are not trained diffrently. The same hate is still there and it always will be. My father was taught to kill at any measure and so were all the other soldiers. I really think you might be getting the wrong picture about how WWII was. Trust me ive heard stories. Movies show WWII to be some noble cause, which it was. But this doesn't mean that terrible things didn't happen. It's just during the vietnam war the media was getting alot larger due to television. They started to realise the worse things they showed the more the ratings went up and the more the people watched. So the more they can show one bad thing happening and make it look even larger then it was.

You make it sound like Vietnam soldiers are trained like Rambo and that WWII soldiers were trained like Samurai. This is totally not the case.

[Ceraziefish]

Yup, I agree with Manowar's post. Remember, war crimes happened in WWII, too (and I mean war crimes committed by American soldiers, not the obvious ones).

Obviously, being in the military is not going to drive everyone crazy. I'm just saying I could totally see how it would make me, personally, think that things like murdering civilians and raping for fun would be okay. Which scares me, and is a big reason I don't want to join the military.

[GummyBearOfDoom]

Yup, I agree with Manowar's post. Remember, war crimes happened in WWII, too (and I mean war crimes committed by American soldiers, not the obvious ones).

Obviously, being in the military is not going to drive everyone crazy. I'm just saying I could totally see how it would make me, personally, think that things like murdering civilians and raping for fun would be okay. Which scares me, and is a big reason I don't want to join the military.

Totally right, my newphew is in IRaq right now and has been for a very long time. Hes a marine and hes seen alot of stuff there. He's seen friends die from grenades and i've heard alot of horrible things that make people sound like monsters. But you'll never know what horrible things your capable of until one of your friends body parts is lying besides you.

It's a dangerous responsibility to have other lives at your hands.

[Belial]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5_-RXw8R3A...ted&search=

[Gundampilotspaz]

http://tan-staafl.blogspot.com/2006/11/disgusting.html

[Belial]

This war needs to be a big thing again. We're going to be feeling this for years whether we get out sooner rather than later.

People are dying, and they're going to keep dying for years.

[ROCKSTEADY]

I think:

those who join the military to protect freedom are stupid.

those who join to help iraq are stupid.

those who join to fight terrorism are stupid.

Every person i know that is going to iraq or is already in iraq are only there because of the family tradition of military service.

The iraqi veterans (most of them anyway) i have met have been huge muscle bound racsist idiots that love burning up fuel in their 4mpg pickup truck and love talking about how they were shooting at people.

i've also met veterans that think what is happening over there is sick. I've also been told that theres alot of things that happen over there that we never even hear about.

soldiers are people too, there are good ones and bad ones.

[Mithrandir]

Well, as a young American living in an Muslim country (albeit a very western and secular muslim country), I think people in the military are pretty alright for the most part.

Granted this is based mostly on my interactions with the Marines in the defense attache at the embassy. I they're nice people, and very very few of the ones I met have been driven by a belief in the U.S.'s campaigns and such. They're just regular folks (most of whom are about my age) who joined the military because it was the best way that could get where they wanted to go in life. That said, I don't have too much in common with them, but the same could be said of the other interns at the embassy.

I'm not too wild about the officers I've met, though.

[GummyBearOfDoom]

I think:

those who join the military to protect freedom are stupid.

those who join to help iraq are stupid.

those who join to fight terrorism are stupid.

Every person i know that is going to iraq or is already in iraq are only there because of the family tradition of military service.

The iraqi veterans (most of them anyway) i have met have been huge muscle bound racsist idiots that love burning up fuel in their 4mpg pickup truck and love talking about how they were shooting at people.

i've also met veterans that think what is happening over there is sick. I've also been told that theres alot of things that happen over there that we never even hear about.

soldiers are people too, there are good ones and bad ones.

That's a pretty horrible generalization. How many veterans have you met? Maybe 10?

Also I do not think people joining the military to protect freedom are stupid, a military is needed. Not an enormous one like the one we have today but there is some noble reasons to join up.

And stop saying "Every person I know"

That's probably one of the worst way to look at things because all the people I do know in the military do not have military families. You keep making the same rationolizations that racists make "all the Mexicans I know are in prison" etc etc.

[Ceraziefish]

There's a guy in my class who, while relatively nice, is pretty racist (making snide comments about Arabs and Mexicans).

He already did a tour of duty in the Air Force (in Iraq) and now he's going back as part of the National Guard.

In some ways he represents to me the worst parts of American culture (obnoxious pop culture junkie, kind stupid, racist), yet he's who we're sending over to fight for us. That being said...

Soldiers are people too. They're not any different from civilians except they're involved in a really fucked up subculture.

[Mithrandir]

Soldiers are people too. They're not any different from civilians except they're involved in a really fucked up subculture.

Yep, that's the nail on the head right there.

The house where all the marine live in Baku is covered in posters of women in bikinis and high heels holding machine guns. Now don't try to tell me that's not a little fucked up.

[ROCKSTEADY]

That's a pretty horrible generalization. How many veterans have you met? Maybe 10?

Also I do not think people joining the military to protect freedom are stupid, a military is needed. Not an enormous one like the one we have today but there is some noble reasons to join up.

And stop saying "Every person I know"

That's probably one of the worst way to look at things because all the people I do know in the military do not have military families. You keep making the same rationolizations that racists make "all the Mexicans I know are in prison" etc etc.

i wasn't Generalizing at all, i was just showing the polarity of the american soldier from my viewpoint.

And i really fail to see how joining a national military ever protects freedom.

[Rabidus est quis EGO sum]

Joining the military, in my opinion, can be one of two things to the enlistee.

1: They did it because there family was in it, either being forced into it by father, grandfather, et cetera, or feeling pride in joining

2: They are super gung ho, and they want to have a reason to shoot some shit up.

Course, that's just my take on it.

[Ceraziefish]

Joining the military, in my opinion, can be one of two things to the enlistee.

1: They did it because there family was in it, either being forced into it by father, grandfather, et cetera, or feeling pride in joining

2: They are super gung ho, and they want to have a reason to shoot some shit up.

Course, that's just my take on it.

I think there are people who think that they're going into it because they don't know what they want to do with their life and they want Veteran's benefits.

But the way I was raised, joining the military was always considered completely off-limits. So, I dunno.