Free Will

[Gundampilotspaz]

What is he extent in which our will is free? How much of our lives are under our control? How much is not?

Are there things we absolutely cannot control?

To begin, I shall present my view on the issue. I believe that Free Will is absolute, that every action we as humans preform is a choice that is weighted and calculated on a conscious or just under the conscious level.

The only "needs" are primal. Eating, breathing, drinking, and sleep are all needs.

But when someone says "You need to go to school." or, "You have to get a job." They are lying. The optimal choice in our society is to go to school and get a job. But we weight it against the only other option available to us, live on the street and starve to death.

Also, the term "I had no choice" is a lie. It is just to say that the choice they picked was overwhelmingly better than the alternative. Like a person who would help the Germans kill Jews during the Second World War. If he choose not to hep them, he would have died. But the choice was there.

Emotions sometimes prevent us from making the right choice, and we blame the emotion, when the blame should be in ourselves. We are creating a block where the right choice is skewed and becomes the wrong one. Fear, anger, hate, and depression all have this effect. This can lead to anger at yourself, because inside us we know that we are responsible for everything we do. Self destructive behavior, self mutilation, and suicide all come from disappointment in ourselves for failure to do what is right. (Chemical imbalances and other physical brain issues don't apply, of course.)

Also note, of course, that this is a Philosophy not psychology

[margot]

I don't believe Vampy was saying that people do NOT have the choice, just that it isn't as easy as you make it out to be. You act like the situation is extremely black and white. I don't mean to sound condescending, but you sound very naive on this subject. If you were placed in such a situation I don't believe you'd find it so easy.

I'll say again I guess. When I was a bit younger I was being constantly abused, and I didn't try to stop it because I was so scared of what would happen if I did. But the abuse that happened to me was in no way my fault. If I weren't so emotionally removed from the matter I'd be pretty offended by what you are saying, I imagine.

[Gundampilotspaz]

Of course it isn't black and white, sometimes every choice may lead you into a wall. But it's always there, there is never an absolute. Because of that freedom, there are infinite possibilities in any one situation.

But, you can't only take the choice that is given to you at that time. Trace it back, an unrelated path may have lead you into that wall.

I don't want to get fixated on abuse, I really don't care about domestic abuse. I jumped into it because of the ultimate blame that you pointed at a single person, the abuser. When the Abusee still trusts and stays with him/her. Fear plays a role, but that fear has to be weighted against what that person is living with.

And do note, that this is for LONG TERM abuse, Months to years. There is a level when the person being abused just gets used to it and lives with it, after that it's hopeless. She doesn't know how to choose a life without the abuse any longer. The problem must be confronted at the start, only than can it be solved. Anything after that point is a mistake, and will lead to that wall.

But at the start, that first time.... if you don't turn away at that point there is something very wrong with that person to make that decision. I say that choices are absolute, but not all choices are exactly clear when they are made.

There is no way I'm saying that she said to herself, "I like being a bused, I think I'll stay here."

On some level, however, she weighted her options and decided that FOR WHATEVER REASON, the best thing for her was to stay with that abusive person.

But child abuse is a different matter. It's not as if the child is fully develop mentally, they may not have the ability to make a rational choice. The child has much fewer escapes than an adult; they can't simply drive away and start a new life. Than there is the fact that because the child has come to relay on their parents who guardian to survive, they do not know any different than being with them.

Humans are animals, at they're core. We can learn to become obedient helpless fools. But that is not what we are born as.

I do hope that came out somewhat clear, the order of thoughts wasn't really... there.

*runs to get coffee*

[Belial]

I've often thought that what we perceive as free will is more illusion that reality. Some psychologists view the human mind as little more than a computer, albeit a ridiculously complex computer. Every situation is weighed and judged based on our past experiences and trained responses and then we act accordingly. In this example there is no “free will” because in theory, if we where able to quantify someone’s mind and a given situation, we’d be able to predict with absolute accuracy their reaction to said situation.

[Battle_Pope]

so that would mean all time is predetermined?

[Belial]

so that would mean all time is predetermined?

Theoretically, yes; over looking random chance in physics and such.

If anyone has read Asimov’s Foundation series they did something like this, more or less, but upon a much grander scale as they predicted the course of human history by mathematically quantifying sociology.

[Satan]

so that would mean all time is predetermined?

not necessarily

even if you know what the person wants to do, you won't know exactly if they'll succeed, or the exact moment they'll attempt to act. Even on mundane things, yo don't know the exact amount a person will eat, which over time can affect how long that person lives, which can spark a whole new chain of possibilities.

[Battle_Pope]

Theoretically, yes; over looking random chance in physics and such.

If anyone has read Asimov’s Foundation series they did something like this, more or less, but upon a much grander scale as they predicted the course of human history by mathematically quantifying sociology.

i certainly don't live my life by mathematics because mathematics don't really exist.

[Gundampilotspaz]

I've often thought that what we perceive as free will is more illusion that reality. Some psychologists view the human mind as little more than a computer, albeit a ridiculously complex computer. Every situation is weighed and judged based on our past experiences and trained responses and then we act accordingly. In this example there is no “free will” because in theory, if we where able to quantify someone’s mind and a given situation, we’d be able to predict with absolute accuracy their reaction to said situation.

But that is free will, because each human does this independently, and they do it all the time.

What can't be measured, however, is how intelligent every person is; what their experiences are; and what they're morals are. Those factors make these calculations unique for every person.

[Belial]

But that is free will, because each human does this independently, and they do it all the time.

But free will implies a choice, and my model allows no room for choice. It claims that all actions are simply reactions to the situation, free from actual choice.

What can't be measured, however, is how intelligent every person is; what their experiences are; and what they're morals are. Those factors make these calculations unique for every person.

How quick you are to place limits on the will of man. Do you honestly believe that there are things that will forever lay outside of our power given the infinite time and resources that this universe offers?

[Baltar]

i certainly don't live my life by mathematics because mathematics don't really exist.

Mathematics was originally created by philosophers as was Chemistry. Science in all forms is art and Philosophy. It is a conduit for mankind to try and understand the complexity of the universe in it's most basic form. This makes Mathematics very true and very real, just it's our minds way to break it down into visible means. It is the underlying framework for the the universe.

But that is free will, because each human does this independently, and they do it all the time.

What can't be measured, however, is how intelligent every person is; what their experiences are; and what they're morals are. Those factors make these calculations unique for every person.

A basic form of what you are talking about is called human profiling. Another example are Algorithms for finding a point of orgin of a criminal through of a series of plots. Those are already being made and used by law enforcement. Whats to say in the future that those can not be used to track the events with precise accuracy?

[amy]

i agree with Belial, but i try not to think about it because I believe human responsibility is to live like we do have a choice.

[Samurai Drifter]

Hm.

I agree with GPS on pretty much all counts. Also, it's worth noting that the human brain is essentially a computer.

[Gundampilotspaz]

How quick you are to place limits on the will of man. Do you honestly believe that there are things that will forever lay outside of our power given the infinite time and resources that this universe offers?

Of course not, but that is branching off into another subject entirely. Projects such as that; that change the races ability to do something; would take the effort of an entire nation. Or even the entire planet.

Fifty years ago we would have never believed that a normal citizen could go into space. Today we are on the verge of that happening. (though privatization and capitalism but thats off topic and I won't shove that in your face here) The first effort that made these current advancements possible pushed the limits of the resources; human and material; of the nation.

[margot]

I don't want to go to space.

[Poophy]

Your not in complete control, certainly circumstances play apart in what happens in your life, but at the sometime, the concept of fate, in the since that your entire life is predestined and you have no control over it (like tomorrow you will get hit by a car, if you go out driving you will get hit by a car, if you sit at home a car will come through the wall and hit you) is something that I don’t believe in…

[Satan]

Mathematics was originally created by philosophers as was Chemistry. Science in all forms is art and Philosophy. It is a conduit for mankind to try and understand the complexity of the universe in it's most basic form. This makes Mathematics very true and very real, just it's our minds way to break it down into visible means. It is the underlying framework for the the universe.

A basic form of what you are talking about is called human profiling. Another example are Algorithms for finding a point of orgin of a criminal through of a series of plots. Those are already being made and used by law enforcement. Whats to say in the future that those can not be used to track the events with precise accuracy?

One way to look at math is as a way to understand the universe.

While such a computer system could be theoretically possible, in order to make it actually work we would need massive amounts of computing power and memory, plus a really good program. Even given all of that, you would need a copy of every human brain in order to predict exactly how it would act. You would then need to input all of this data before it became obselete.

Putting all of that aside, the examples you raise are based on probability, not absolutes.

You call the citizens being into space ordinary? Let's just say we may have different definitions of ordinary

[Gundampilotspaz]

You call the citizens being into space ordinary? Let's just say we may have different definitions of ordinary

Commercial Space flight is only a few years away thanks to the success of Space Ship One.

[Ceraziefish]

Commercial Space flight is only a few years away thanks to the success of Space Ship One.

At the low low cost of only $200,000 for two hours.

Now THAT is a symbol of bourgeois excess if I've ever seen one.

Anyhoo, as to the actual thread subject; GPS, you're getting very technical. Technically, a member of the German military could have resisted torturing Jews in WWII, but it would take an exceptional person to go against the grain like that. Sure, they did have a choice in the most abstract sense, but in reality they never had a choice.

I'm more inclined to agree with what Belial mentioned... the only real choices we have are the small things, like "Shall I have a bagel with peanut butter or cream cheese?" Sometimes things will happen that you don't have a choice on. When I started going out with my girlfriend, I had no choice but to be with her, because the alternative was to deprive myself of something wonderful and make both of us feel horrible. And that is not an option, if you see my way of thinking.

Basically, I don't think you can really have a choice unless you can make the choice several times. You can only decide once "Shall I kill this man?" but you can decide what you're going to have for breakfast (unless you're too poor to have a choice, through privatization and capitalism but thats off topic and I won't shove that in your face here).

EDIT: Consider the following situation: I am decidedly homeless, and I want a cinnamon roll. But I don't have enough money for a cinnamon roll. Therefore, I am, in fact, being deprived of free will because I can't have a cinnamon roll. Replace cinnamon roll with whatever you want (mansion, several women, the moon)

[Belial]

Also, don't get me started on the power of social roles and norms on one's behavior. I'll be here ranting for days.

[Samurai Drifter]

I keep thinking this thread says "Free Wii!" which is why I keep coming in.

[Baltar]

I keep thinking this thread says "Free Wii!" which is why I keep coming in.

I found this on the net for you.

I don't actually own one though myself. :wacko:

[Belial]

I'm surprised that I'm the first one on this...

There are those who think that life

Has nothing left to chance

With a host of holy horrors

To direct our aimless dance

A planet of playthings

We dance on the strings

Of powers we cannot perceive

The stars arent aligned ---

Or the gods are malign

Blame is better to give than receive

You can choose a ready guide

In some celestial voice

If you choose not to decide

You still have made a choice

You can choose from phantom fears

And kindness that can kill

I will choose a path thats clear

I will choose free will

There are those who think that theyve been dealt a losing hand

The cards were stacked against them ---

They werent born in lotus-land

All preordained

A prisoner in chains

A victim of venomous fate

Kicked in the face

You cant pray for a place

In heavens unearthly estate

Each of us

A cell of awareness

Imperfect and incomplete

Genetic blends

With uncertain ends

On a fortune hunt

Thats far too fleet...

[Baltar]

Quality rush song.

[I live in your sock]

I agree with you to some extent. BUT I don't think you should play the blame game. Especially the subconscious choices. For example, it's impossible to keep yourself from kicking a bit in the air when you get your reflexes tested. (unless they do it wrong DX) It's not like you can say, "'Know what? I don't feel like blinking when I suddenly see a rock shooting at my eyes." It's not something that can go through the mind fast enough to react quickly when there's a boulder being hurled at your face.

Also, with the conscious choices that people make there are different pros and cons for each situation that have to be weighed out very quickly and the human can't always push the pause button of life and think the situation over carefully at all.

Or even the slow situations different people have different values so one decision may seem 'wrong' to another person for one reason or another. I mean, how would you like it if everyone said you were 'wrong' about everything you did because of personal opinions? I would not like that very much.

Soooooooo yeah that was my rant :D