Nationalism

[Ceraziefish]

Are nations a good idea anymore? That is, is the idea of dividing the Earth up into different territories, each of which is free to govern itself how they want, a good idea? Is it practical? Is it a good idea in its current state (i.e. you're free to govern yourself however you want as long as the Americanskii's like it)?

Or is it a worthless idea that factionalizes people who are all basically the same and creates needless bureacracy?

Why do you think nations came around and have lasted?

Personally, I think they're absolutely ridiculous concepts that, like money and private ownership, have no value but have been with us for so long that it's hard for people to imagine how society might function without them.

[Belial]

Are nations a good idea ever?

No, but really, who didn't see me saying that?

I patiently await GPS's aimless rant and subsequent hijacking of this thread.

[Nega-Brent]

It's better this way. I don't think we're ready to dissolve the borders and get rid of nations.

[amy]

I know this is horrible, but I love nationalism.

Mostly American nationalism, but when I stop and think about it, I see the beauty in any other nationalism too. America's my team though.

I think love for your country is for most people stronger than the love for their god, or even their family. It's not a question of pragmatism. I think there's just something in the human spirit that loves its own land enough to die for it.

(Assuming this thread is about the meaning similar to "patriotism")

[Belial]

I know this is horrible, but I love nationalism.

Mostly American nationalism, but when I stop and think about it, I see the beauty in any other nationalism too. America's my team though.

I think love for your country is for most people stronger than the love for their god, or even their family. It's not a question of pragmatism. I think there's just something in the human spirit that loves its own land enough to die for it.

(Assuming this thread is about the meaning similar to "patriotism")

Loving the people you live around, loving the dirt that you toil in, and loving the world that surrounds you is all very good, but loving the country you are born in, to the point of fanaticism (i.e. Chanting U.S.A. at sporting events, etc...) is ridiculous. There is nothing wrong with loving the American Spirit that you seem to romanticize Amy, I understand why you do that, but a Nationalist believes his country is greater than every other country and that he is therefore inherently better that the citizens of those countries. I don't think you feel that way.

[amy]

From my point of view, America is the greatest country in the world. I would gladly go to a sporting event and chant USA! If USA was playing of course.

I understand that other people think they're the best though, and that's wonderful. I would be freaked out if they didn't show up and chant YEMEN YEMEN YEMEN!

I think all this love and chanting is beautiful.

There's some debate about whether that's "patriotism" or "nationalism", I try not to get caught up in that. I like the good one.

[Belial]

From my point of view, America is the greatest country in the world. I would gladly go to a sporting event and chant USA! If USA was playing of course.

I understand that other people think they're the best though, and that's wonderful. I would be freaked out if they didn't show up and chant YEMEN YEMEN YEMEN!

I think all this love and chanting is beautiful.

There's some debate about whether that's "patriotism" or "nationalism", I try not to get caught up in that. I like the good one.

But the thing is there are few other countries that chant their name at local sporting events. I'm not saying international events, but local ones. That kind of action is akin to Germans shouting "Sieg Hail" in 1939.

[ROCKSTEADY]

last time i got into a discussion remotely resembling this one, Amy tried to get me banned on the grounds that i was a nazi.

[Nega-Brent]

last time i got into a discussion remotely resembling this one, Amy tried to get me banned on the grounds that i was a nazi.

You're not?

[amy]

I don't see the problem with chanting our name. I think the feeling is overflowing like when you're at a party with your close friends and you just want to say "ohhh I love you guys so much." I wish the chant included I love the people who are silent, I love the people who couldn't afford to attend the game, I love the people who are working. Also, a sports event is politically neutral. It would bother me at a rally or convention.

Weimar Germany is absolutely the most interesting thing to study, imo.

If you look at famous anti-Nazi Social Democrats and Communists, like George Grosz, you'll see that they're mostly very critical and none offer the affirming, embracing, VOLKSWAGEN SPIRIT that the Nazis did. They were overwhelmingly nihilistic, depressed, supported "hedonistic" American-style values, invented Dada poetry while people were starving in the streets.

If I had been a German during Weimar, I probably would have become a Nazi. To me, that doesn't show the danger of nationalism. It shows the danger of cynicism and negativity. Many people grow up with an intense love for their homeland, and it's as much a part of them as their arms or legs. You have to find a safe productive way to express that love. If you try to deny it or say it's dangerous, it'll simmer under the surface and the first cult leader that walks up to you talking about the purity of America, you'll want to believe it. I think a good amount of nationalism circulating in the mainstream is very healthy as an anti-Nazi-types measure.

Wow, that was so long ago. Sorry about that Rocksteady. >___> Now I seem like the Nazi.

[Cleese]

Nationalism ebbs and flows throughout history, shifting from continental unity to fractionalized ethnic (typically) representations. Right now seems as if were on an upswing to massive unification. However, when there is a change its usually centered around conflict of some kind. Then again conflict breeds polarization.

I don't mind nationalism too much, just as long as its not blind.

[Satan]

Lots to talk about here.

There are two basic starting points, which lead to opposite ends. If we start with the belief in darwinism and survival of the fittest, we need nations to encourage competition. If we start from the idea that man can truly master his own destiny, I arrive at the idea of nations as a dividing force that stop unification, harmony, and progress through cooperation.

Then there's the USA phenomenon. I fully support it. As long as we live in a world with nations, there is nothing wrong with national pride at sporting events, it becomes bad when the attitude becomes discriminatory or belligerent.

(full disclosure, I've participated in the USA chant, but not the way its being discussed here)

[Samurai Drifter]

No one government could manage 6 billion people at once. And they have to be managed.

[Belial]

...And they have to be managed.

FALSE!!

[Ceraziefish]

From my point of view, America is the greatest country in the world. I would gladly go to a sporting event and chant USA! If USA was playing of course.

I understand that other people think they're the best though, and that's wonderful. I would be freaked out if they didn't show up and chant YEMEN YEMEN YEMEN!

I think all this love and chanting is beautiful.

There's some debate about whether that's "patriotism" or "nationalism", I try not to get caught up in that. I like the good one.

But see, the thing is, I know I'm not the best. I don't think anything makes the U.S.A. better than any other country. It's just some lines we drew on a map, why should people on one side of the line be better than the other? We're all people.

Now, on the other hand, competition is hardly always a bad thing. There's nothing wrong with saying that MY KUNG FU IS SUPERIOR or what have you, or cheering at sports events. I just don't see what I have in common with a dude from New York that I don't have in common with a dude from the West Bank. I mean, I guess a language, but languages can be learned.

What I'm saying is people are all basically the same and I think it's stupid to divide between them like this.

No one government could manage 6 billion people at once. And they have to be managed.

I'm gonna have to agree with Belial on this one. Plenty of people are perfectly capable of managing themselves, organizing themselves into social groups (Anarcho-Syndicalism is so cool).

[Belial]

Seriously, lets spend some time to think about it. I know I have more in common with your average Iraqi citizen than I do with someone like George Bush. The average Iraqi who is just trying to do what he has to do to survive. He goes to work every day to work his ass off for to better himself. He is more my brother than the kind of people that rule nations; that draw the imaginary lines on a map. Imaginary lines that countless thousands of battles have been fought over, and countless millions have died for, when in reality there was always only one war, always only one fight, and always only one cause worth dying for. Everything else was a lie to control you.

NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR.

[Satan]

Seriously, lets spend some time to think about it. I know I have more in common with your average Iraqi citizen than I do with someone like George Bush. The average Iraqi who is just trying to do what he has to do to survive. He goes to work every day to work his ass off for to better himself. He is more my brother than the kind of people that rule nations; that draw the imaginary lines on a map. Imaginary lines that countless thousands of battles have been fought over, and countless millions have died for, when in reality there was always only one war, always only one fight, and always only one cause worth dying for. Everything else was a lie to control you.

NO WAR BUT CLASS WAR.

please tell me this is completely sarcastic

I have every bit as much in common with Bush as i do with an Iraqi. As long as you insist on any isurmountable divides, there will be problems. Problems stemming from differences in class are no different from struggles of race, the right way isn't to put a new group in power or kill a group, it is to make the division meaningless tp the point that it is simply an observation (he has black skin) and not a condemnation (the implied "so he must be an illiterate thug/savage/infidel/inferior)

[Belial]

please tell me this is completely sarcastic

I have every bit as much in common with Bush as i do with an Iraqi. As long as you insist on any isurmountable divides, there will be problems. Problems stemming from differences in class are no different from struggles of race, the right way isn't to put a new group in power or kill a group, it is to make the division meaningless tp the point that it is simply an observation (he has black skin) and not a condemnation (the implied "so he must be an illiterate thug/savage/infidel/inferior)

I don't believe in race, and unlike you, do not judge people by the color of their skin or the organ between their legs. I do however see that there are people who work for a living and people who exploit others for a living, the later of which need to be removed from the picture.

[Satan]

I don't believe in race, and unlike you, do not judge people by the color of their skin or the organ between their legs. I do however see that there are people who work for a living and people who exploit others for a living, the later of which need to be removed from the picture.

Okay, a few things need some clarification.

1) You don't believe in race? It is a fact that some people have different heritages and skin tones and that this is used to judge them. Not all people use it, and few judgements are made completely on that basis, but it is still a factor. I'm not sure how you mean that you don't believe in race. I don't believe that race, heritage, skin tone, or any other such factor should be used to judge them.

2) Unlike me? If you think that the things I said are implied aren't things that people think of others based on such superficial things as race you need to step outside. Those aren't my ideas, but they are ideas that are fairly common and need to be addressed.

3) How do you suggest we remove them from the picture? Armed warfare? I'm all for the first viable reform idea I hear, but warfare doesn't strike me as either effective or moral. If you mean it in a more metaphorical sense I think that any term like "class warfare" that carries such radical and negative connotations is politcally counterproductive and unclear. You give no specifics, and given the rest of your speech (only one cause worth dying for? a very broad cause then) I think its justifiable to think that you refer to actual armed warfare.

[Belial]

Okay, a few things need some clarification.

1) You don't believe in race? It is a fact that some people have different heritages and skin tones and that this is used to judge them. Not all people use it, and few judgements are made completely on that basis, but it is still a factor. I'm not sure how you mean that you don't believe in race. I don't believe that race, heritage, skin tone, or any other such factor should be used to judge them.

2) Unlike me? If you think that the things I said are implied aren't things that people think of others based on such superficial things as race you need to step outside. Those aren't my ideas, but they are ideas that are fairly common and need to be addressed.

3) How do you suggest we remove them from the picture? Armed warfare? I'm all for the first viable reform idea I hear, but warfare doesn't strike me as either effective or moral. If you mean it in a more metaphorical sense I think that any term like "class warfare" that carries such radical and negative connotations is politcally counterproductive and unclear. You give no specifics, and given the rest of your speech (only one cause worth dying for? a very broad cause then) I think its justifiable to think that you refer to actual armed warfare.

When workers are educated and organized the exploiters will be unable to resist their will peacefully. They will strike out against the masses, for those with power do not relinquish it easily. If violence is the eventual end, it will not be brought on by the proletarian, but he must be ready to defend himself.

[Satan]

When workers are educated and organized the exploiters will be unable to resist their will peacefully. They will strike out against the masses, for those with power do not relinquish it easily. If violence is the eventual end, it will not be brought on by the proletarian, but he must be ready to defend himself.

nice speech, but until I hear a practical concrete proposal, its just so much musing

[Belial]

nice speech, but until I hear a practical concrete proposal, its just so much musing

The concrete proposal is to educate. Every one who reads what I say here has the chance to take a second and think "Wow, that seems like a pretty good idea" usually followed by a "Too bad it will never work". The goal is to remove the second part and in its place instill a want to do something about it. Change is an avalanche that requires enough force to get started. Apathy is the only sin as far as I'm concerned.

[Nega-Brent]

The concrete proposal is to educate. Every one who reads what I say here has the chance to take a second and think "Wow, that seems like a pretty good idea" usually followed by a "Too bad it will never work". The goal is to remove the second part and in its place instill a want to do something about it. Change is an avalanche that requires enough force to get started. Apathy is the only sin as far as I'm concerned.

I mostly just think about what a stubborn douche bag you are, just like the other usual "debaters" on this forum.

[Satan]

The concrete proposal is to educate. Every one who reads what I say here has the chance to take a second and think "Wow, that seems like a pretty good idea" usually followed by a "Too bad it will never work". The goal is to remove the second part and in its place instill a want to do something about it. Change is an avalanche that requires enough force to get started. Apathy is the only sin as far as I'm concerned.

so we should think "wow that seems like a pretty good idea" and then sit there staring at our screens drooling?

[Belial]

I mostly just think about what a stubborn douche bag you are, just like the other usual "debaters" on this forum.

You do so enjoy playing the asshole, don't you?

so we should think "wow that seems like a pretty good idea" and then sit there staring at our screens drooling?

Once apathy is defeated I would hope you would have intelligence enough to do some independent research on the subject, and from there devise what you must do next.