Sexism

[thebornotaku]

resume debating

[margot]

The majority I've men I've meet (from teenage to elderly) seem top be planted firmly. But woman I have met (I see this more in highschool) range from those I'd trust with my life to those I wouldn't trust driving a car.

Your singular experiences don't give you a wide view of the world, especially since they're influenced by your own point of view and their own feelings towards you. I could meet those same men you've met and end up thinking they were rude and selfish, and meet those same women you've met and not be particularly swayed one way or another.

[amy]

which of course can blamed on her gender.

(and even if it were) men do similar things all the time...

One sign that a group is discriminated against is that members of that group are required to be perfect specimens, otherwise people look at you and say "Oh, see this behavior is a reason for me to lol @ everyone like you"

e.g. you can't be a women who buys expensive clothes, a black person who has trouble in school, a guy who has sex with lots of girls, an asian with no social skills, an alcoholic indian, a handicapped person who asks for help ...

and people will read these qualities into you even if you show the slightest sign of fitting the stereotype.

[thebornotaku]

If women as a whole are fiscally irresposnible (which I don't believe they are), it's society's fault for not teaching them to be fiscally responsible.

But what about men and their passion for sports and automobiles as well as their attraction to meaningless sex and violence?

but you see, i believe that not all, but the majority of women are fiscally irresponsibe, and not because society's fault, because thier parents didn't teach them shit.

however, i do not believe that all men are overly passionate about sports (however, i know a person who is, it's insane) and automobiles (i admit, however, to being passionate about sportscars in particular, the mechanics fascinate me). and i also don't believe that all men are attracted to meaningless sex and violence. yes, i enjoy watching things blow up, and i also am rather fond of guns and the like, but i also like stuff like military tactics and strategems.

i basically make desicisions off of things i observe in the enviroment around me. if i see alot of people with dogs, i am going to assume that the majority of people like dogs. because it's a safe assumption to make, especially if i have enough for me to back it up, at least in my enviroment.

[thebornotaku]

One sign that a group is discriminated against is that members of that group are required to be perfect specimens, otherwise people look at you and say "Oh, see this behavior is a reason for me to lol @ everyone like you"

e.g. you can't be a women who buys expensive clothes, a black person who has trouble in school, a guy who has sex with lots of girls, an asian with no social skills, an alcoholic indian, a handicapped person who asks for help ...

and people will read these qualities into you even if you show the slightest sign of fitting the stereotype.

but you see with people like my mom, she does buy alot of expensive useless things like clothes and lighting and stuff (she spend like 300$ on lights for a room that was well lit already) and she wants to get a new dinner table merely because she doesn't like our current one (it's just fine), and she has to have the perfectly made bed with the 50 pillows arranged in a symmetrical fashion, and all this unnessacary stuff.

compare that to me:

i have not that many clothes, and those i do have i have had for a good amount of time, and most of them are jeans, all the t-shirts i own i got for free (hand-outs, gifts, etc), i have one pair of shoes and a pair of boots, my bed (whilst it is big) has like 4 pillows, it's never made, and the lighting for my room is this floor lamp.

and it's not just my mom either, it's almost every freaking female i know (like, i have seen them and talked to thier face, not like internet) sans my sister and like two of my friends.

[margot]

but you see, i believe that not all, but the majority of women are fiscally irresponsibe, and not because society's fault, because thier parents didn't teach them shit.

however, i do not believe that all men are overly passionate about sports (however, i know a person who is, it's insane) and automobiles (i admit, however, to being passionate about sportscars in particular, the mechanics fascinate me). and i also don't believe that all men are attracted to meaningless sex and violence. yes, i enjoy watching things blow up, and i also am rather fond of guns and the like, but i also like stuff like military tactics and strategems.

i basically make desicisions off of things i observe in the enviroment around me. if i see alot of people with dogs, i am going to assume that the majority of people like dogs. because it's a safe assumption to make, especially if i have enough for me to back it up, at least in my enviroment.

Err, but don't you see why having these widespread opinions (especially ones that can be viewed in a negative light) are dangerous? And that if you form these widespread opinions from the environment that comes from a screwed up culture you're just perpetuating the badness of it? Societal reform can only happen if we stop thinking like that.

Edited December 27, 2005 by Lindsay

[thebornotaku]

Err, but don't you see why having these widespread opinions (especially ones that can be viewed in a negative light) are dangerous? And that if you form these widespread opinions from the environment that comes from a screwed up culture you're just perpetuating the badness of it?

i do see why it can be dangerous, but if i go to a highly sexist area, i am not going to simply say "oh, well everybody is sexist" even if they are, and not care about it, because believe it or not, even if i don't voice my opinion on issues, it doesn't mean i don't have an opinion, or that i am alright with it.

[margot]

i do see why it can be dangerous, but if i go to a highly sexist area, i am not going to simply say "oh, well everybody is sexist" even if they are, and not care about it, because believe it or not, even if i don't voice my opinion on issues, it doesn't mean i don't have an opinion, or that i am alright with it.

But that's not going to solve anything.

Here's an illustration:

It's just the truthhh.

[thebornotaku]

also, saying that belldandy is partially to blame because she seems sterotypical (assuming you havent watched AMG) is like saying that guys are afraid of getting hurt by femlaes because Narusegawa pummed keitaro (he had it coming, but regardless, if you have seen AMG then you would know that it was belldandy's responsibility to be keichii's boyfriend, then she developed feelings for him)

[thebornotaku]

But that's not going to solve anything.

Here's an illustration:

It's just the truthhh.

but you see the thing is, i don't assume that all women are sterotypical due to the fact that alot of them around me are, i do that with everything. if i see alot of fiscally irresponble people, regardless of gender, i will say that i feel that there are alot of fiscally irresponsible people.

it's how i think about people around me, and honestly, i am not going to change it because some girl in las vegas brought up a debate over sexism.

[margot]

What are you talking about? The character of Belldandy represents sexism because she represents some ideal of "inconditional love" and "selflessness" as well as acting more or less as a servant throughout the whole series. This sort of thing has an impact on those who watch it. eitherway it's not like I'm trying to single out your favorite anime series or whatever, it's just what's there.

[margot]

but you see the thing is, i don't assume that all women are sterotypical due to the fact that alot of them around me are, i do that with everything. if i see alot of fiscally irresponble people, regardless of gender, i will say that i feel that there are alot of fiscally irresponsible people.

it's how i think about people around me, and honestly, i am not going to change it because some girl in las vegas brought up a debate over sexism.

zzz I don't see how stereotyping things based on your limited view of what's around you makes your stereotyping of women less harmful.

Well of course no one is going to change their whole point of view because of a debate online. It's not really my responsiblity to make you more open minded or anything, anyway.

[thebornotaku]

What are you talking about? The character of Belldandy represents sexism because she represents some ideal of "inconditional love" and "selflessness" as well as acting more or less as a servant throughout the whole series. This sort of thing has an impact on those who watch it. eitherway it's not like I'm trying to single out your favorite anime series or whatever, it's just what's there.

a few things:

1. Ah Megami Sama was too short, the version i saw anyways. Love Hina was actually a bit better.

2. i don't think that unconditional love and selflessness are sexist sterotypes for women, i think it's a mind of fantasy that every human has, regardless of geneder. i am pretty sure you would appreciate having a partner who cared and loved you selflessy enough that they wouldn't mind doing nice things, but wasn't your slave. if you have watched AMG, you would know that keichii doesn't boss belldandy around like "MAKE ME A SANDWICH, BITCH". she just does things. by personal choice.

3. i realize you're not trying to single anything out.

[margot]

zzz well I don't care enough about anime to start splitting hairs about it, but sexist anime is harmful and influential to society as well.

Belldandy is seen as ideal when she's a servant (willingly or not) and reinforces this dangerous stereotype that women should be selfless and love unconditionally (and yes it is a stereotype concerning women, look at christianity). Being "selfless" and "loving unconditionally" leads to things like women staying with absuive husbands, not complaining when they're being disenfranchised, ect.

Edited December 27, 2005 by Lindsay

[thebornotaku]

well you could say that EVERYTHING supports a sterotype in one way or another, liks you couls day that a guy wearing a jacket with a sport team logo means that he's addicted to sports, when he could just like the jacket.

it's like saying that because i like performance vehicles that i love EVERY sportscar ever made, when, in fact, i don't.

[margot]

zzz and that's where not taking part in believing in stereotypes comes in.

[thebornotaku]

but i believe things based on my observations, sterotypical or not

[margot]

Again: limited scope, singular point of view, stereotypes are still dangerous, ect.

[Belial]

While it is impossible not to stereotype to some degree, it is important to realize you are doing it and take steps to ignore the pictures of the world created by them.

[Gundampilotspaz]

So in order for everything to be equal woman need to be bitter and cold?

[margot]

I don't know where you're getting the "bitter and cold" thing from.

Women should you know, actually be allowed to have personalities and express their needs and wants, yes.

[Gundampilotspaz]

Who said they shouldn't?

[margot]

Who said they should be bitter and cold?

I'm not even sure what the fuck this topic is about anymore.

[Gundampilotspaz]

I don't think I ever knew. In my opinion it should be closed.

All I can say it let people live their lives the way they want too. If a woman wants to work and earn money, fine. If they don't thats fine too.

I've said this before (and in my world lit. class) that I wouldn't mind my wife supporting me, I think thats why I don't really understand the whole woman working movement in the 60's.

But to each his own if a woman wants to marry based on appearance, then let her life turn out bad and end up devoriced with three kids and no respect. I don't care, I think that is the main part of living in the modern world, understanding that people will think a behave the way they want to/ thne way they were raised no matter what laws are past or who tells them what. It is just human nature to stick with what you were taught. Let them do as they wish.

[Ceraziefish]

See, TBO, the problem with going off your personal observations is that you're not perfect. I mean, you could see some woman shopping in a clothing store and think "Oh, looks like another woman addicted to pointless expenses!" when in fact she could be there for a completely unrelated reason (I'm not feeling very creative right now, but I hope you get my point).

And, from what I've seen of both (which is very little) both Ah! My Goddess (or whatever the Japanese name is) and Love Hina are pretty sexist. That's just how things go. Society is very sexist, so people make sexist art because that's what is accepted by society, no matter how unfortunate it is.