Homosexuality, Infertility and Catholicism

[Satan]

I seriously don't ecpect to many opponents here, which is somewhat unfortunate, since I'm really having this argument to try to hone my skills for when i try to contimue this argument with my religion teacher, who is generally a reasonable man.

I am essentially restrained by Catholic doctrine, which is composed mainly of the idea that sex is moral only if it has two intents

1) unitive

2) procreative

My argument was as follows:

1) We assume that homosexuality really exists, that this is how they are made, adn that homosexual sex does bring unity, thus fulfilling the fist requirement. He doesn't like this, but for the sake of argument agrees.

2) Examine a couple that is physically incapable of having a child. They cannot have sex with procreation as a goal, because procreation is not possible through sex. I made the comparison to me hitting a desk and wanting a million dollars: there is no logical way that hitting the desk will make the million dollars appear. They can want children, but they cannot sexually produce them.

3) The homosexual situation is no different from the infertile situation: both fulfill the unitive, neither can fulfill the procreative. Thus the moral judgement on one must be the same as the moral judgement on the other.

[FaultyClockwork]

So what are we devating exactly?

[LeadingMan]

He very well may argue that two people who are unable to bear children should not be having sex, and that the call from god is for all people to be chaste, however those able to bear children are allowed their work. (Which I believe is the official Catholic position.)

Every sperm is sacred after all. Regardless of whether it goes into a pussy or an ass.

[Satan]

He very well may argue that two people who are unable to bear children should not be having sex, and that the call from god is for all people to be chaste, however those able to bear children are allowed their work. (Which I believe is the official Catholic position.)

Every sperm is sacred after all. Regardless of whether it goes into a pussy or an ass.

unfortunately, that's not his position. His position is that sex is fine as long as the intent includes procreation and unity. Since the infertile people can't produce children, its okay for them to have sex without procreating.

And nazi, we are debating homosexuality and the catholic church's stance on it. Especially the logic, or lack thereof, concerning it. Unfortunately, they condemn it and few people here do. Thus I posted something similar in Gaia, which is likely to be quite entertaining.

More than anything else, I need the flaw in my reasoning.

[LeadingMan]

unfortunately, that's not his position. His position is that sex is fine as long as the intent includes procreation and unity. Since the infertile people can't produce children, its okay for them to have sex without procreating.

And nazi, we are debating homosexuality and the catholic church's stance on it. Especially the logic, or lack thereof, concerning it. Unfortunately, they condemn it and few people here do. Thus I posted something similar in Gaia, which is likely to be quite entertaining.

More than anything else, I need the flaw in my reasoning.

Yeah that's biased and essentially classifies homosexuals as a lower class of people. Which is a dangerous and insulting position to be taking.

If that's his primary reasoning then his own argument is inherently flawed as you've pointed out. I can find no real problem with your argument other than the standard "when it comes down to it god says no and that's all that matters" you're very likely to get out of him eventually

The only real flaw I see in your argument is your treatment of the first point. Essentially you said, "Let's assume 1 is true. 1 is true then." and then you go on to actually attempt to prove point 2. You should treat both points the same way in a debate.

If I were you, I would break down the fact that sex is an activity, and like any activity can be used for a myriad of purpose by individual people. And because of that fact there is nothing inherent in a gay person that would cause them biologically opposed to union spiritually and physically with another human being. Rather they simply choose different partners.

Or something to that effect.

I still find that most of these arguments eventually boil down to "Well, it's a sin because god says so" and then you're getting into a place where you have to debate the merit of the concept of sin and the existance of god on a whole. Or at least, I do. heh.

[Samurai Drifter]

That appears to be a logically cohesive argument under the circumstances.

[Satan]

Yeah that's biased and essentially classifies homosexuals as a lower class of people. Which is a dangerous and insulting position to be taking.

If that's his primary reasoning then his own argument is inherently flawed as you've pointed out. I can find no real problem with your argument other than the standard "when it comes down to it god says no and that's all that matters" you're very likely to get out of him eventually

The only real flaw I see in your argument is your treatment of the first point. Essentially you said, "Let's assume 1 is true. 1 is true then." and then you go on to actually attempt to prove point 2. You should treat both points the same way in a debate.

I just broke it down that way because it seemed like the easiest way to arrange it. 1 and the foundation of Catholic Doctrine (unitive and procreative aspects being necessary for sex to be moral) are the assumptions. And since 1 is difficult, if not impossible, to prove in either direction, I have to set it aside for now, and deal with it later. I fully expect to try to debate him every day until exams, because quite frankly I need a good debate.

If I were you, I would break down the fact that sex is an activity, and like any activity can be used for a myriad of purpose by individual people. And because of that fact there is nothing inherent in a gay person that would cause them biologically opposed to union spiritually and physically with another human being. Rather they simply choose different partners.

Or something to that effect.

That's fairly close to my view, but here i have to argue using Catholic doctrine thus I must deal with the procreative goal. I have to take the assumption that people who are homosexual are naturally attracted to people of the same sex. (and thus incapable of fulfilling themselves spiritually threw people of the opposite sex)

I still find that most of these arguments eventually boil down to "Well, it's a sin because god says so" and then you're getting into a place where you have to debate the merit of the concept of sin and the existance of god on a whole. Or at least, I do. heh.

possibly, but this is a man who is generally very reasonable, and would know that a debate about God would go nowhere. That's okay, I'm already preparing for the debate on the origin of Catholic belief.

That appears to be a logically cohesive argument under the circumstances.

That's what I was afraid of. I'd almost found a perfectly reasonable religion teacher, but if my arguments hold, he came up 1 week short.

[JeremyGEE]

He very well may argue that two people who are unable to bear children should not be having sex, and that the call from god is for all people to be chaste, however those able to bear children are allowed their work. (Which I believe is the official Catholic position.)

Every sperm is sacred after all. Regardless of whether it goes into a pussy or an ass.

But not a drop can hit the ground.

[Poophy]

say that gay people are also TRYING to have kids when they have sex, it just hasnt happened yet

[Galkar]

say that gay people are also TRYING to have kids when they have sex, it just hasnt happened yet

Yes. Inform your teacher about the Buterus.

[Jake]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, and found this thread by a google search for catholic homosexuality and infertility. The reason why I was looking was because I am a gay man considering a conversion to Catholicism, and I have wondered why parallelisms between the two have never really been addressed. In my opinion, if it is one of the two reasons that people have sex then fertility tests should be required of all Catholics wishing to get married; I mean, gay people don't get a chance to see if they can make babies, why should Catholics?

I think this is a big topic because numerous studies have shown that nearly one eighth of married couples within the age of being able to reproduce are classified as infertile. That's millions of Americans alone.

This subject has been on my mind so much that my friend has arranged for me to talk to a priest about this hopefully today and if not within the week. I'm interested to hear the opinions of the church on this, and in a lot of ways it may have a big effect on whether I decide to continue on my path I'm on.

Take care guys, I'll let you know when I talk to him. :-)

Jake

[Samurai Drifter]

Well... this thread is now going to be entirely derailed.

[Jake]

Well... this thread is now going to be entirely derailed.

By me? I thought I was on topic. :-/

[JeremyGEE]

By me? I thought I was on topic. :-/

Indeed you are sir. But i don't think we've ever had someone who specifically pertained to the topic. Thats all lol.

[Samurai Drifter]

By me? I thought I was on topic. :-/

Not by you, but by the others who come that say "Don't convert to Christianity!!!111"

[LeadingMan]

Take care guys, I'll let you know when I talk to him. :-)

Jake

Please do actually. I'd love to hear what he has to say on the topic, and I'm hoping greatly for an actual logical answer. But most of the time that simply doesn't occur.

Double standards and religion tend to go hand in hand.

Edit: And yeah, they're right. My first thought after reading your post would be questioning why you want to convert to a religion that almost wholeheartedly doesn't support your lifestyle. But I'm gonna try to reign that horse in for the sake of staying on topic. ;)

[FaultyClockwork]

I don't understand why anyone would willingly convert to Catholicism.

No but seriously, it's impossible to argue on a logical level with the core tenets of a faith, as faith is illogical and the core tenets of a certain sect of a religion tends to remain immobile.

[Satan]

Hi everyone. I'm new to this forum, and found this thread by a google search for catholic homosexuality and infertility. The reason why I was looking was because I am a gay man considering a conversion to Catholicism, and I have wondered why parallelisms between the two have never really been addressed. In my opinion, if it is one of the two reasons that people have sex then fertility tests should be required of all Catholics wishing to get married; I mean, gay people don't get a chance to see if they can make babies, why should Catholics?

I think this is a big topic because numerous studies have shown that nearly one eighth of married couples within the age of being able to reproduce are classified as infertile. That's millions of Americans alone.

This subject has been on my mind so much that my friend has arranged for me to talk to a priest about this hopefully today and if not within the week. I'm interested to hear the opinions of the church on this, and in a lot of ways it may have a big effect on whether I decide to continue on my path I'm on.

Take care guys, I'll let you know when I talk to him. :-)

Jake

Well, it may depend partially on the parish. My parish is technically RCC, but the pope might not agree with some things that get said in the sermons, and not all churches take the term "catholic" (universal) as literally as most our church does.

I hope your priest sheds ome light on this issue. If you get an answer, please share it here

I don't understand why anyone would willingly convert to Catholicism.

No but seriously, it's impossible to argue on a logical level with the core tenets of a faith, as faith is illogical and the core tenets of a certain sect of a religion tends to remain immobile.

First of all, you used circular logic there. As for the core tenets part, obviously. Few people change their core tenets too much, religions aren't much different.

yes, there are often illogical things. Many people acknowledge this. They find that logic hasn't solved all our problems, so they'll fill the gap. The problem is mostly when they misjudge the size of the gap, or fail to adjust when it changes.

And yes, we know you hate all religions

[FaultyClockwork]

Yeah, I'm not going to go into that. It was a jab. I'm just saying, if one of the core beliefs of Catholicism is that sex is for making babies in marriage, what is there to debate about? Of course you can be a good Catholic and be gay but there will always be that stigma and fufilling any of your urges would be a sin.

My friend Jaela is bisexual and has been in multiple sexually active homosexual relationships and is very religious, I'm not sure what sect of Christianity she belongs to though.

[Poophy]

[quote name='NaziMatzahnerd' date='Jun 6 2007, 07:56 PM' post='290652'

My friend Jaela is bisexual and has been in multiple sexually active homosexual relationships and is very religious, I'm not sure what sect of Christianity she belongs to though.

[/quote

most lilky a meber of the UCC, we have openly gay ministers

[FaultyClockwork]

I'll ask her sometime. Fun fact: she's a rad poet and rapper.

[Jake]

Edit: And yeah, they're right. My first thought after reading your post would be questioning why you want to convert to a religion that almost wholeheartedly doesn't support your lifestyle. But I'm gonna try to reign that horse in for the sake of staying on topic. ;)

I've been agnostic for most of my life, but I've always been fascinated with all religions and studied them in my free time with great conviction. Catholicism is the first religion I've studied that I've felt a conviction to live my life by and felt pushing from God to pursue.

My problem with being Catholic before now was based largely off of my dislike for the saint-worship that a lot of Catholics have fallen into, but I've resolved that because I know that the saints are people who have given good examples of God's work, and are not to be worshiped like God himself.

My calling means much more to me than any 'lifestyle' I have in my life, but I feel that the judgment of the church is flawed in this case and will not let that keep me from learning the faith

But, like you, I'll reign that horse in for this thread :-P

No but seriously, it's impossible to argue on a logical level with the core tenets of a faith, as faith is illogical and the core tenets of a certain sect of a religion tends to remain immobile.

Well, the church's stance on homosexuality and infertility isn't really that well defined. Many of the passages in the bible that use the word "homosexual" have large problems with translations and other things (more on that here), and infertility was always viewed as a choice of God back then not as a malfunction of the body. If these things were that important, I really believe that Jesus Himself would have mentioned something in the span of His 33 years on the earth.

I hope your priest sheds ome light on this issue. If you get an answer, please share it here

Well, I just got back from talking to him, and unfortunately (and also fortunately?) he didn't have any debate to give me, because he felt the same way as I do on the subject. He believes that the Church's doctrine is out of sync with society on these issues. He told me that in his prayer and experience he doesn't feel that God would create people to love people that he denies them through the church.

He also said that he sees no reason why the church would allow marriages of infertile people if it was the wish of God that all of them reproduce; although, he did mention that infertility has been a bases for marriage annulment by the church before.

So, that was slightly disappointing. I plan to talk to a pastor that I know has more conservative views to see if there is any actual justification behind the conflicting doctrines.

Yeah, I'm not going to go into that. It was a jab. I'm just saying, if one of the core beliefs of Catholicism is that sex is for making babies in marriage, what is there to debate about? Of course you can be a good Catholic and be gay but there will always be that stigma and fufilling any of your urges would be a sin.

In order to reason with someone about core beliefs, you have to show them other parts of their core beliefs that conflict with what they are saying (thus the pointing out of the inconsistency of allowing infertile marriage). No, not everyone is still going to listen, but you still have to listen to their reasoning and give them the ability to justify their entire view so you can decide your stance with their argument.

[Samurai Drifter]

See?

[Satan]

Yeah, I'm not going to go into that. It was a jab. I'm just saying, if one of the core beliefs of Catholicism is that sex is for making babies in marriage, what is there to debate about? Of course you can be a good Catholic and be gay but there will always be that stigma and fufilling any of your urges would be a sin.

My friend Jaela is bisexual and has been in multiple sexually active homosexual relationships and is very religious, I'm not sure what sect of Christianity she belongs to though.

To be fair, my teacher was quite quick to point out the other things considered sins that he seemed to consider minor, such as masturbation, lust and porn, so its not as if straight people don't do shitloads of imoral things too.

[FaultyClockwork]

In order to reason with someone about core beliefs, you have to show them other parts of their core beliefs that conflict with what they are saying (thus the pointing out of the inconsistency of allowing infertile marriage). No, not everyone is still going to listen, but you still have to listen to their reasoning and give them the ability to justify their entire view so you can decide your stance with their argument.

There's always the fall back of the idea that marriages is for straights and the line in the Bible about men not lying together, but you do have a good point there. I'm not sure what anyone but a priest could do to help you though. I think an examination of human sexuality would even point to homosexuality being natural but that's not the point of contention.

To be fair, my teacher was quite quick to point out the other things considered sins that he seemed to consider minor, such as masturbation, lust and porn, so its not as if straight people don't do shitloads of imoral things too.

Of course.