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Basically, I started bitching about it on RT because of one thing;

Self hating white people.

I agree that white privilege exists and it's a terrible thing, I agree that everyone has prejudice that they can't overcome, but they can certainly try. Probably, by default, white people are part of the problem. No white people = no racism.

What I hate is when people tell me that I, personally, am the source of this terrible problem. That, because of who my ancestors were, I should feel bad about the fact that they might have been involved with imperialism or racism, possibly the slave trade (the real bitch of this is that I know basically nothing about my ancestry/family history. I don't have any ethnicity that I can identify with, and it's kind of annoying to me, in an abstract sort of way. But people remind me of my ancestry and identify with me an ethnicity, then tell me that ethnicity is horrible and something I should be deeply ashamed of).

The weirdest part is that I don't hear this from black people, or latinos, or whatever; I hear it from other white people. Who are ashamed of their ancestry. I guess it's okay if they want to be, but why they have to project that on me I don't know.

Where I got this the worst was in a class in high school, on African-American Literature. The class had a great reading list and some of the most painfully stupid seminars I've ever heard. For example, one day we spent an hour talking about the word "nigger." This discussion consisted of one black student saying he wished no one would ever use it, one black student saying she thought it was empowering for black people to use it, but white people shouldn't.

There were two white, straight, males in this class, and I was one of them. We got shit from that class, from a number of women, gay kids, and minority students, in various degrees of combination.

Racism is nuts and I don't really mean to bitch about my situation because I my problems aren't that important compared to problems faced by real victims of racism. And if you go by the anti-racist definition of racism, it isn't racism, but that's just splitting hairs. I'm that guy in your liberal arts college who gets annoyed when we spend twenty minutes talking about how "that definition of colonialism was rather eurocentric, and the reading this week used heteronormative language." YES, THAT'S BECAUSE EUROPEANS DID MOST COLONIZING, AND THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, ABOUT MEN, IN THE 16TH CENTURY. ):< BLARGH BLARGH BLARGH

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Hate is NOT wrong.

Racism is wrong. Hate is not.

CF, you owe nothing to black people, just as you owe nothing to white people. You owe nothing to ANYONE, and you certainly have no reason to be guilty for crimes which you had nothing to do with. Those self-hating people are either stupid or way too fucking sentimental, and you shouldn't care what they think.

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You owe nothing to ANYONE

He owes me 5 dollars.

CF, instead of feeling bad about your heritige and ethnicity, I think you need to do exactly the opposite and feel good and empowered by it. I think you know what I'm talking about.... MANIFEST DESTINY!! Get out there and steal some land in the name of your ancestors! *dances*

Seriously though, I think part of the problem at least in the example you gave is that a lot of the people at that high school were kind of stupid but were put in a place where they thought they were smart. I also felt really uncomfortable whenever a discussion about racism took place in Barabara's room because I pretty much felt that, being white, I was not allowed to give any opinion that didn't amount to "white people were and are evil and I'm sorry for all these things that my ancestors did that I had absolutely nothing to do with."

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Actually CF has some-what of a point. I know the feeling. Being mostly German, its almost unbelievable the amount of people who say to me "Wow, so you hate jews?" and "So you think Hitler was the best guy ever?" I'm dead serious, even aydults (yes, aydults xP) Have given me...odd looks when they here me talking to my friends about being German. Soooo yea, shoot me if i'm wrong here, but yea...ohhh well...

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Actually CF has some-what of a point. I know the feeling. Being mostly German, its almost unbelievable the amount of people who say to me "Wow, so you hate jews?" and "So you think Hitler was the best guy ever?" I'm dead serious, even aydults (yes, aydults xP) Have given me...odd looks when they here me talking to my friends about being German. Soooo yea, shoot me if i'm wrong here, but yea...ohhh well...

If you actually think people are serious when they fuck with you like that fix your sarcasm detector.

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Hate is NOT wrong.

Racism is wrong. Hate is not.

CF, you owe nothing to black people, just as you owe nothing to white people. You owe nothing to ANYONE, and you certainly have no reason to be guilty for crimes which you had nothing to do with. Those self-hating people are either stupid or way too fucking sentimental, and you shouldn't care what they think.

I don't care what they think as long as they don't try to project it on me. I certainly agree that I owe nothing in a metaphysical sense to anyone because of their race. I think the idea behind slave reparations is that lots of black people are poor today because their families never had a chance to get money in the first place.

I also don't think there's anything wrong with hate as long as you don't act on it. I mean, if you make someone's life hell just because you dislike something about them,

And I do owe something to people, I owe a debt to society for raising me in the way it did. That's a personal belief of mine, I've made it pretty well on the backs of other people, even if I didn't choose to, and I feel that I owe society at large something for that. But that's a different story.

And GPS, gang warfare isn't racism.

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Basically, I started bitching about it on RT because of one thing;

Self hating white people.

I agree that white privilege exists and it's a terrible thing, I agree that everyone has prejudice that they can't overcome, but they can certainly try. Probably, by default, white people are part of the problem. No white people = no racism.

What I hate is when people tell me that I, personally, am the source of this terrible problem. That, because of who my ancestors were, I should feel bad about the fact that they might have been involved with imperialism or racism, possibly the slave trade (the real bitch of this is that I know basically nothing about my ancestry/family history. I don't have any ethnicity that I can identify with, and it's kind of annoying to me, in an abstract sort of way. But people remind me of my ancestry and identify with me an ethnicity, then tell me that ethnicity is horrible and something I should be deeply ashamed of).

The weirdest part is that I don't hear this from black people, or latinos, or whatever; I hear it from other white people. Who are ashamed of their ancestry. I guess it's okay if they want to be, but why they have to project that on me I don't know.

Where I got this the worst was in a class in high school, on African-American Literature. The class had a great reading list and some of the most painfully stupid seminars I've ever heard. For example, one day we spent an hour talking about the word "nigger." This discussion consisted of one black student saying he wished no one would ever use it, one black student saying she thought it was empowering for black people to use it, but white people shouldn't.

There were two white, straight, males in this class, and I was one of them. We got shit from that class, from a number of women, gay kids, and minority students, in various degrees of combination.

Racism is nuts and I don't really mean to bitch about my situation because I my problems aren't that important compared to problems faced by real victims of racism. And if you go by the anti-racist definition of racism, it isn't racism, but that's just splitting hairs. I'm that guy in your liberal arts college who gets annoyed when we spend twenty minutes talking about how "that definition of colonialism was rather eurocentric, and the reading this week used heteronormative language." YES, THAT'S BECAUSE EUROPEANS DID MOST COLONIZING, AND THE BOOK WAS WRITTEN BY MEN, ABOUT MEN, IN THE 16TH CENTURY. ):< BLARGH BLARGH BLARGH

Before I say anything on this, I just wanna tell you how awesome it is that you thought this out. I used to feel this way as well, and then one day I let it go. This is why:

My paternal ancestors were a very wealthy family from Yorkshire, England. The main guy, Theophilus (great grandfather x whatever, can't recall) moved to Barbados and ran a sugar cane plantation. After that he and his family moved to Charleston and the story goes that he had Boone Hall Plantation built for his daughter and her husband, so my mom decided it would be cool to go there and check it out. Well, of course the tour made no mention of this man, just his daughter. They didn't even know he existed. But anyway, when they took us back to see the smoking room (where all the rich old bastards hang out and drank, you know) I found lists of royal land grants on the wall. And, lo and behold, I find Mr. Theophilus Paty's name multiple times.

It made me excited just to see an ancestor but left me feeling empty. This guy was not my family-this man had money, influence...everything I will never have in my own life. There was no emotional or spiritual connection. From this I realize I have no responsibility in what he had done-I wasn't even sperm yet! How could anyone tell me that "my people" (I have a problem with this statement-I am of European descent but my great grandmothers were Cherokee...I am not white and I am not an Indian, I'm just American whether I like it or not) are responsible for all the oppression and hate when, as you may have already concluded, they are not MY people. My people are people who struggle everyday to survive and still love being alive. My people look at racism and roll their eyes because they know it will never end (at least in our time) and that it is just another necessary evil of human life.

I had the nigger conversation in my Public Speaking class. My professor brought up an instance where a girl in high school had called something gay, and then her teacher turned around and either called her a nigger or asked her how it would feel just so she could see how insesitive she was being. It was mostly me and the black dude in my class talking (he was really cool about it by the way) and I just threw my hands up and said "Look, white people don't want black people to have any fun. Just because we can't say it doesn't mean they shouldn't. It's all just really ridiculous and I don't care anymore."

Really, will it make things any better if you are "allowed" to say nigger? Does anyone really want to say nigger? I hear my boyfriend say it all the time and I have to admit it bothers me only for the simple fact that it makes him sound like a moron. I'm guilty of saying it myself. I really say it more than I wish I did, but I get angry just like any other human and say things I don't mean. I suppose it doesn't help that I was raised in an extremely racist household. I'm just trying to break away from the patterns of thought my dad imposed on me. And it is really hard, but it's worth it.

Bottom line: Next time someone fills your head with that bullshit, stand up for yourself. Yell if you have to-get this point across: "I am not responsible, never will be responsible, and nothing you say will make me feel responsible."

And then spit in their face for me :headbang:

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I guess I should've made it clear in this thread that I don't feel any white guilt, at all, ever. I just don't have the family history to. I probably have some ancestors who were slave owners, who's to say I didn't have ancestors who were abolitionists, or just poor white people?

Conversely, why should I feel bad about European Imperialism? Well, the answer is, I don't. Some people made bad decisions 500 years ago, but I just don't see how I'm more related to them than anyone else.

Query; shouldn't latino people feel "latino guilt," since ethnically they're just Spanish people who interbred with the native Americans? In other words, latinos can trace their ancestry directly back to the conquistadors who raped and killed their way through sixteenth-century Mexico.

(BTW, last time I was in California I saw some hilarious writing on a San Francisco bathroom wall: Some dude had written "Wetbacks go home," and right under it someone else had written "This is Mexico, honky.")

Now, what I do feel bad about is this; modern problems of racism. (I don't feel really bad about this, but it's there). Because of white privilege, I am doing things that black people can't and it makes me feel bad.

(HopelessPyromantic, I don't remember you at all and it's possible we were never members at the same time, but you seem pretty cool and welcome back)

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I guess I should've made it clear in this thread that I don't feel any white guilt, at all, ever. I just don't have the family history to. I probably have some ancestors who were slave owners, who's to say I didn't have ancestors who were abolitionists, or just poor white people?

Conversely, why should I feel bad about European Imperialism? Well, the answer is, I don't. Some people made bad decisions 500 years ago, but I just don't see how I'm more related to them than anyone else.

Query; shouldn't latino people feel "latino guilt," since ethnically they're just Spanish people who interbred with the native Americans? In other words, latinos can trace their ancestry directly back to the conquistadors who raped and killed their way through sixteenth-century Mexico.

(BTW, last time I was in California I saw some hilarious writing on a San Francisco bathroom wall: Some dude had written "Wetbacks go home," and right under it someone else had written "This is Mexico, honky.")

Now, what I do feel bad about is this; modern problems of racism. (I don't feel really bad about this, but it's there). Because of white privilege, I am doing things that black people can't and it makes me feel bad.

(HopelessPyromantic, I don't remember you at all and it's possible we were never members at the same time, but you seem pretty cool and welcome back)

Thank you :) And you know you mentioned poor white people-man, that's what happened to my ancestors. They moved to the Appalachians after the Revolutionary War and became poor white trash. Karma? My family has paid for its sins and still is-everyone on my fathers side (mothers too actually) is a fucking lunatic, so am I, so there you go. We're all fucked up.

On your query: good fucking point! I've been asking myself the same question for a while now. But they don't, and neither should we. But it is an extremely valid point.

Haha! He is right from a historical perspective. I haven't decided which side to take in that war, probably because it is history and there is nothing we can do to change it. The U.S. took over Mexican territory, good or bad. But it is over, we got their land which wasn't even rightfully their land in the first place and all we get is a huge clusterfuck of inhumanity.

Are you really doing things that black people cannot? I want to know what these things are. Are these American black people?

Look, I may be a hopeless optimist but I say where is the spirit of the Civil Rights movement? When are people gonna quit sitting back and complaining and get up and do something about it?

These great people accomplished great things when they got together and said we ain't taking this shit anymore. Why doesn't anyone have the fight in them anymore?

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Yeah, the other night my roommate and I had a huge bitchfest about how actual progressives are some of the most apathetic people on earth these days.

...Of course then we just played video games.

As for the politics of the Mexican-American war, neither the Mexicans or the Americans should have been there in the first place. But I wish people weren't so goddamn racist against latinos, assuming they all hopped over the border when in fact it's very likely that their families have been living there longer than the white person's family.

I mean, how can you complain about how Mexicans are ruining California when you're driving towards a city called San Francisco on a highway called Alameda de las Pulgas?

Or when you're in New Mexico?!

For example, I wish there were, say, any latino senators, considering that they make up almost half the population of the U.S. And it's high time that we made Spanish an official language. Most of the stores around here (in Washington, about as far from Mexico as you can get on the West Coast) have "Salida" signs as big as the "Exit" signs (among plenty of examples I could pull up if I actually cared to).

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Haha! Yeah, that is a good point. San Francisco. Haha!

You have a good point about the official language, but I have to disagree, and this is why:

When I was growing up, there were no latinos where I live. I grew up speaking English, and that is what I will speak for the rest of my life.

I'm not going to learn another language to accomodate anyone who moved to my area. Not because I am an asshole, but because they moved here, they knew where they were coming to, and they know we speak English.

I don't care if I come off racist as I know that is not my intention, but yes, I have always thought it rude to come to a country and live if you are not considerate enough to learn the language. I felt like shit when I was stationed in Germany and couldn't communicate properly with the locals.

Bottom line: America should not change to accomodate them, they should adapt to America. History be damned, this is my home and I want some respect. I respect them and their language, I never tell them to shut up and speak English, why don't they wake up and do the same?

P.S. I live in Tennessee, and the immense increase in Mexican immigrants over the years is alarming to me. I want them to live and be happy but they better not expect me to change my language for them. Basically, I have this immature "I was here first" attitude and I don't care if it's wrong, it's the way I feel.

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you weren't here first unless you're native american, we are a nation of immigrants, nobody expects you to speak spanish unless you go into a latino neighborhood, if there wasn't immigration we wouldn't be able to support social security for the aging population anyway

THREADBOMB :hardgay:

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Amy, if you would've paid attention you would already know I am of Native American descent. First page. Read it.

And what the fuck? Are we not Native Americans? Were we not born here? Is that not the criteria for being a native?

Also, where did you get that idea about social security? I'm dying to know.

EDIT: Sorry Amy, that was a little harsh. I don't want to come off like that.

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yes, my grandmother was an indian princess as well...

having another official language won't make it so that you're required to learn it.

honestly i wish we'd adopt a system like Canada does with french so we'd have a more bilingual nation. it's so sad that some people would be offended by their children becoming bilingual though.

anyway i think people really just miss the point. no one sane wants you to feel guilty over things your ancestors did, just realize that as consequence of that there's white privilege and all. >> i think when you're talking about discrimination both sides become sooo emotional and take everything so personally. i wish things could be handled more maturely on both sides.

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