Utah Professor to Teach Concealed Carry Law in Class

[Belial]

Weber State University Offering Concealed Weapons Class

October 21st, 2007 @ 10:03pm

John Hollenhorst Reporting

Events on Tuesday will commemorate the six-month anniversary of an incident that shocked the nation. A student at Virginia Tech systematically gunned down students and teachers, killing 32.

At one university in Utah that incident is being used to justify a push for more concealed weapons.

Some professors are packing heat and maybe some students too. A class in Weber State University's Continuing Education Program is specifically aimed at getting people on and off campus to carry guns.

Classroom instructions are given by a professor of anthropology, who doubles as a concealed weapons instructor. Ron Holt says, "I see carrying a concealed weapon as a kind of life insurance policy: 99.99 times you'll never need it, but if you ever do need it, you'll probably really need it."

This continuing education class at Weber State is not for credit. It's open to off-campus folks too, as long as they're at least 21 years old and meet legal requirements for a gun permit.

Guns on campuses are not new. One anonymous teacher has had a permit for 10 years. He says, "My purpose in getting a concealed weapon was, in essence, to become a good citizen."

The tragedy in Virginia has become a selling point. He says, "And I don't consider myself a vigilante. I would never seek out an opportunity to fire my weapon at someone. But if someone is coming toward me, if I were in that situation such as at Virginia Tech, I feel in my heart that I'm prepared."

The classes teach gun safety and scenarios where it's a good idea or a bad idea to pull out a gun. "And I think the ability to react very quickly to a situation like what happened at Virginia Tech outweighs potential problems," says Holt.

We sought reaction at another campus: the University of Utah.

Cameron Strickland disagrees with Holt. He says, "I don't think that's a good idea, to have guns on campus."

"I don't really feel like I should be sitting next to someone with a gun," says Shannon Hook. "And in case something does happen, I don't really necessarily believe everybody has the capability of actually doing something without maybe hurting other people in the process."

But one student applauds the idea. Jake Coburn says, "It gives everyone a sense of confidence, that they can defend themselves."

Utah has issued more than 100,000 concealed weapon permits. That means, whether you like it or not, about one out of every 25 people you meet on the street, in the mall or on campus, could be carrying a gun.

Is it really a good idea to arm teachers, school employees, and students in an attempt to prevent another massacre like the one at VT?

[Satan]

Is it really a good idea to arm teachers, school employees, and students in an attempt to prevent another massacre like the one at VT?

Could it help? Absolutely.

Could it hurt? Absolutely.

Its trading one problem for another. You are less likely to have a full out massacre, but even in that case, a fire fight is still possible

You also risk someone doing something stupid (either in a crisis or in general) and putting more people at risk.

Overall, I'm ambivalent.

[Gundampilotspaz]

Is it really a good idea to arm teachers, school employees, and students in an attempt to prevent another massacre like the one at VT?

Yes

In fact I said so more than a year ago, long before Virgina Tech

[Samurai Drifter]

Is it really a good idea to arm teachers, school employees, and students in an attempt to prevent another massacre like the one at VT?

No.

Throwing more guns at the problem will not fix it.

[Nega-Brent]

Bad idea, very, very bad idea.

[GummyBearOfDoom]

Maybe have a weapon in the school. Like I guess a gun in each room. And then the magazines and bullets would be in a storage system that is controlled by the principal only. And when there is an emergency he can unlock each gunbox in certain rooms so they can load them up and barricade the door.

[Nega-Brent]

Maybe have a weapon in the school. Like I guess a gun in each room. And then the magazines and bullets would be in a storage system that is controlled by the principal only. And when there is an emergency he can unlock each gunbox in certain rooms so they can load them up and barricade the door.

Or we can just avoid any and all trouble associated with actually placing guns in a school on purpose by NOT DOING IT.

[Natsu]

Or we can just avoid any and all trouble associated with actually placing guns in a school on purpose by NOT DOING IT.

[GummyBearOfDoom]

Or we can just avoid any and all trouble associated with actually placing guns in a school on purpose by NOT DOING IT.

I guess I was trying to place a situation that would allow the principal to make the decision to let them use the fire arms in an extreme case like a crazy guy running through killing people. A setup that would not give the teacher the right to use it whenever he/she wanted. oh well.

[ROCKSTEADY]

every gun for everyone.

Class war, not world war.

[JasonStiletto]

No gun zones are ignored by people who intend to inflict harm.

No matter how strong the protection, getting a weapon on campus can be done reasonably easily. You can always shoot the people at the metal detectors first. Not everything occurs inside buildings, in any case. The first people on the scene are always students and/or teachers, security and police have to find the assailant before they can do anything.

People who shoot up schools are rarely trained even minimally, and only achieve high body counts because they can literally walk up to their victims and fire. I think besides this, a minimal self defense should be taught as a required class freshman year.

The first person responsible for your safety is always you. I don't think you could secure a reasonably sized campus without an additional 400-500 people on the security staff. Believe be, there are few things more annoying than bored people in a position of authority who don't have much to do. Although, I suppose drinking and drug use on campus would go way down, and I'm sure the students wouldn't mind carrying another $400-$1000 in fees every year for that pleasure.

[The Lone Magician]

I'm not sure how I feel about this.

[Satan]

No gun zones are ignored by people who intend to inflict harm.

No matter how strong the protection, getting a weapon on campus can be done reasonably easily. You can always shoot the people at the metal detectors first. Not everything occurs inside buildings, in any case. The first people on the scene are always students and/or teachers, security and police have to find the assailant before they can do anything.

People who shoot up schools are rarely trained even minimally, and only achieve high body counts because they can literally walk up to their victims and fire. I think besides this, a minimal self defense should be taught as a required class freshman year.

The first person responsible for your safety is always you. I don't think you could secure a reasonably sized campus without an additional 400-500 people on the security staff. Believe be, there are few things more annoying than bored people in a position of authority who don't have much to do. Although, I suppose drinking and drug use on campus would go way down, and I'm sure the students wouldn't mind carrying another $400-$1000 in fees every year for that pleasure.

I don't think any one here has suggested doing that, we've merely suggested that its not a good idea to have large numbers of people walking around with guns.

[JasonStiletto]

I don't think any one here has suggested doing that, we've merely suggested that its not a good idea to have large numbers of people walking around with guns.

I am merely suggesting that it is not a good idea to have no people walking around with guns.. and that since the people who don't obey "no guns".. don't obey, that the only two ways to assure a reasonable amount of safety for the schools population is let law abiding adults concealed carry, or increase security to unhealthy levels.

[Satan]

I am merely suggesting that it is not a good idea to have no people walking around with guns.. and that since the people who don't obey "no guns".. don't obey, that the only two ways to assure a reasonable amount of safety for the schools population is let law abiding adults concealed carry, or increase security to unhealthy levels.

and concealed carry would allow, and by logical extension encourage, large numbers of people to carry guns. You are suggestiong that we introduce more guns into the system.

My argument is two fold.

1) the level of danger, as it is now, is not unreasonably high

2) introducing more guns increases the chances of accidents and stupid action causing death.

Now, I have no problem with guns, but I don't see a huge crisis here.

[Ceraziefish]

Although, I suppose drinking and drug use on campus would go way down, and I'm sure the students wouldn't mind carrying another $400-$1000 in fees every year for that pleasure.

Ha!

That actually made me laugh.

[FaultyClockwork]

Bad idea, very, very bad idea.

This. Your basically giving psychopaths free liscence to come into class bristling with hidden weaponry.

[JasonStiletto]

Psychopaths have been taking advantage of that license for years. I'm giving license to everyone else to defend themselves when the few broken people do.

[Ceraziefish]

X is bad for the system. Therefore, if we add more X the system will fix itself.

Simple logic, guys.

[JasonStiletto]

X is "bad people with guns."

I do not agree that more "bad people with guns." is good for the system, and it's dishonest to represent my argument that way. Merely having a gun doesn't make people crazy. With more than 1 gun for every two Americans, I think we'd all be dead by now if it did.

[Ceraziefish]

Alright, I'm sorry.

Clearly, though, your argument is in line with the classic NRA slogan "Guns don't kill people, people kill people." And to some extent I agree with that idea.

Still, consider that it's a lot harder to, say, go on a killing spree with a knife or most weapons, versus guns. A person with a pistol or two can make short work of an entire room, with very little training, versus someone with a knife. So, having guns does make it much easier to go on these killing sprees.

Now, would it have helped at V-Tech/Columbine/Whatever shooting spree of your choice if more people had been armed? It's completely possible. Perhaps when someone pulled out their first gun, they would've just been shot. Still, this isn't the wild west, it's entirely possible that the shooter could have killed someone with a gun first, then grabbed their gun, hey, now they have two guns.

I'm sort of on the fence about this issue.

[amy]

I think if more ordinary people have guns there would be fewer shootings but many more suicides.

[JasonStiletto]

with the majority of deaths happening at point blank range, I doubt he would have won any awards as a sharp shooter.

Bombs work faster than guns, aren't overly difficult to build, instructions are available on the Internet, indeed, it's much easier to conceal that you were the one responsible- and yet school bombings are rare.

The people involved in school shootings want to go out in a blaze of glory and killing people with knives or chainsaws is very tiring and there is greater risk. Usually they aren't planning on living though the affair, it's an elaborate suicide where they're going to take as many people as possible with them. Catching them alive so they answer for their crimes is thus good. They rarely have much practice with their weapon of choice, as suicide plans can be rather complex, they are after all suicide plans, and rarely do well when actually confronted.

None of this reduces my original message- you shouldn't be one of many shot execution style in a class room hoping he'll go away. If you think you're going to die, throw shit, tackle him, etc. You might die anyway but saving others is a noble act. And hey, you might not. But if you had a weapon as well you have more options than throwing a desk. Throwing a desk is a big, heavy, loud, and difficult maneuver. It's not that I think people need guns in schools per ce, it's just that I think people should defend themselves when their lives are threatened, with deadly force if needed, and your weapon needs roughly the same range as that of your opponent to have an overly good chance of success.

[Satan]

with the majority of deaths happening at point blank range, I doubt he would have won any awards as a sharp shooter.

Bombs work faster than guns, aren't overly difficult to build, instructions are available on the Internet, indeed, it's much easier to conceal that you were the one responsible- and yet school bombings are rare.

The people involved in school shootings want to go out in a blaze of glory and killing people with knives or chainsaws is very tiring and there is greater risk. Usually they aren't planning on living though the affair, it's an elaborate suicide where they're going to take as many people as possible with them. Catching them alive so they answer for their crimes is thus good. They rarely have much practice with their weapon of choice, as suicide plans can be rather complex, they are after all suicide plans, and rarely do well when actually confronted.

None of this reduces my original message- you shouldn't be one of many shot execution style in a class room hoping he'll go away. If you think you're going to die, throw shit, tackle him, etc. You might die anyway but saving others is a noble act. And hey, you might not. But if you had a weapon as well you have more options than throwing a desk. Throwing a desk is a big, heavy, loud, and difficult maneuver. It's not that I think people need guns in schools per ce, it's just that I think people should defend themselves when their lives are threatened, with deadly force if needed, and your weapon needs roughly the same range as that of your opponent to have an overly good chance of success.

I agree, that going down execution style is not the way to go. That said, I don't trust that good would come from arming college students. Some of these people are the last people on earth i want being encouraged to have guns. Most would handle it well, but some would be morons.

[Ceraziefish]

Yup. I would be scared shitless if any of my roommates had a gun. We do get drunk at least once a week...