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Accelerated Evolution

Obama vs McCain debates


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We can discuss the debates between McCain vs Obama here if you watched them.

I think the first half Obama was getting his points in good and got them in well.

McCain how ever in my opinion was winning the second half of the debate, after all he does have more experience in foreign policies. Both did very well I thought, I agree with Obama that we should have talks with Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and Hugo Chavez, leaving them alone does not work. I can see McCain's point in saying that giving dictators a grandstand makes there points legitimate, and people like Ahmadinejad who say there are no gay people in his country and damning Israel shouldn't be treated under no preconditions in an open meeting.

How ever I agree with Barack Obama that our Presidents job is to talk with leaders of this nature, even if we get nothing across it shows others that we are willing to hold peace talks. And maybe, maybe we might accomplish something or sway some minds.

I would like McCain a lot more if it were not for Palin except for his policies in Iraq, I do like Obama but I think his spending plan is to insane and I don't agree with a lot of his points.

Then again I am a registered Libertarian and I think 3rd parties should be allowed in the debates. The only reason that they are stuck at 5-6% in the nationals polls is because no one is letting them get their talking points out.

Please no flaming and let's keep it nice and friendly in here.

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I agree with Obama on most things. Exceeeept...

1) Classifying a branch of Iran's military as a terrorist organization.

2) Calling Chavez a dictator when he's legitimately in power. Apparently not associating with America=dictatorship.

3) Remind me why we support Israel again? No point to it.

4) Oh yeah and his support of capitalism.

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How about the VP debate last night? Anyone?

I don't like either of them, really, but I think Palin bit the dust with her colloquial speech and references to soccer moms.

I don't like either of them either, Biden really looks condescending when he says everything, when Palin speaks it seems so contrived. That whole soccer mom refrence I just pictured her advisers telling her to connect with the American people.

I do not think however that when she said it it hurt her, most people will eat that up.

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I agree with Obama on most things. Exceeeept...

1) Classifying a branch of Iran's military as a terrorist organization.

2) Calling Chavez a dictator when he's legitimately in power. Apparently not associating with America=dictatorship.

3) Remind me why we support Israel again? No point to it.

4) Oh yeah and his support of capitalism.

Yeah, I gotta agree with you on all four points. I mean, I've got a slight bone to pick with #3, just because the situation is so goddamn complicated. But besides that... it's idiotic.

Still better thousands of times better than McCain, though.

EDIT: Reading a transcript of the second interview. Tis handjobs to interest groups, methinks.

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The reason we support Israel is because they are our ally in the middle east.

I was watching the first hour of the debates yesterday and it was the exact same thing as the first debate.

EDIT: Sorry, misread something. But we have other allies in the Middle East, and elsewhere in the world that we don't help nearly as much. I think Zeronos was also questioning that Alliance, saying that it doesn't help Americans very much.

Anyway, that's why I said I didn't completely not support Israel. I mean, it was fucked up of the U.S. to support Israel back in 1948, but to stop supporting them now is just going to beget more violence and death.

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I think we are definitely better allies with Israel....

And because we're allied with a country, that makes it okay to give them millions of dollars in military aid so they can continue sixty years and counting of ethnic oppression, violating international law and illegally occupying parts of other sovereign nations?

Besides, of the three main Middle East allies, that being Israel, Turkey, and Pakistan, Turkey and Pakistan have contributed to our war efforts more (not that I'm saying this is a good thing, but... the fact is that Turkey helped us in the Cold War, and in both Gulf Wars, whereas Pakistan helped in our invasion of Afghanistan). Israel is a drain on our economy.

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And because we're allied with a country, that makes it okay to give them millions of dollars in military aid so they can continue sixty years and counting of ethnic oppression, violating international law and illegally occupying parts of other sovereign nations?

Besides, of the three main Middle East allies, that being Israel, Turkey, and Pakistan, Turkey and Pakistan have contributed to our war efforts more (not that I'm saying this is a good thing, but... the fact is that Turkey helped us in the Cold War, and in both Gulf Wars, whereas Pakistan helped in our invasion of Afghanistan). Israel is a drain on our economy.

Did you just really try and define the Israeli Palestinian conflict that easily by saying it is Israel's fault?

It isn't that clear.

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Did you just really try and define the Israeli Palestinian conflict that easily by saying it is Israel's fault?

It isn't that clear.

I don't see how you could say it's anything but, personally.

There was one country, the Ottoman Empire. After WWI the Empire was taken apart and mostly divided by Britain and France, who began a colonial rule over most parts. Palestine was controlled by the British.

After WWII, 'Zionism,' or the practice of Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, had a surge in popularity following the Holocaust. Using some citations from a 1,700 year old book, Zionists from many countries felt that the logical place would be the location of the former Jewish state, dissolved by the Romans over 2,000 years before.

Unfortunately, there were a number of Arabs living in that place, most of whom had migrated in in the 2,000 year interim. But, Palestine was a British colony, so the British could do whatever they wanted. They handed it over to the U.N. who divided it into two countries -- Israel, and Palestine. A number of Jewish immigrants moved to Israel and forced the native Arabs to move out. This turned into a war in which the Israeli Defense Force, with backing from the United Nations, the United States, and a number of other countries, occupied most of the territory that had been left for the Arabs.

In 1967, Israel engaged in a pre-emptive, supposedly defensive war against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the remainder of Palestine, again with United States backing. During this war it occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (which they renamed, using the Biblical names of Judea and Samaria), the only parts of Palestine still left for Arabs to live in freely, along with Golan Heights (Syrian territory, previously uninvolved with the conflict) and the Sinai Peninsula (Egyptian Territory). During the 70's the Sinai and most of the Golan Heights were returned to their governments, but Palestinian territory was not, as Israel had ceased to recognize the Palestinian State.

After this, the Palestinian government became synonymous with the extremist terrorist organization PLO, which engaged in suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism against the Israeli people (it is important to note that PLO bombings killed, and continue to kill, both Jewish and Arabic Israeli citizens). In the late seventies, and again in 2000, the United States has tried to broker a peace deal between Palestine and Israel, once again offering the two-state solution considered intolerable by Palestinians, who feel that they have a right to the land which was ancestrally theirs for thousands of years. The Palestinian government has recognized the right of Jews to live in Palestine, but desire a single state solution not controlled by the Jewish religion. Whether they want a secular government or a Muslim government I don't know, but I suspect they would prefer a Muslim government.

Another problem not addressed by the two-state system is resources. Most proposed maps of the two-state solution show Israel having its pre-1967 territory plus several areas on the West Bank, with Palestine forming a small state in the remainder of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, this leaves most of the richest parts of the country, including many sources of water (an important consideration in the Eastern Mediterranean's arid climate) in Israeli hands, meaning the Palestinian state would be territorially divided (the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are not contiguous), poor, and requiring Israeli cooperation to survive.

At least, this is my understanding of the situation.

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The reason they invaded was because Egypt was sending para-military units into Israel for years and then retreating back, the Egyptian government did nothing to stop this and in fact was encouraging it. I could be wrong, but from what I read over a year ago when I was actually studying it, I thought the US had demanded the withdrawal of Israeli forces in Egypt?

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I don't see how you could say it's anything but, personally.

There was one country, the Ottoman Empire. After WWI the Empire was taken apart and mostly divided by Britain and France, who began a colonial rule over most parts. Palestine was controlled by the British.

After WWII, 'Zionism,' or the practice of Jewish Ethnic Nationalism, had a surge in popularity following the Holocaust. Using some citations from a 1,700 year old book, Zionists from many countries felt that the logical place would be the location of the former Jewish state, dissolved by the Romans over 2,000 years before.

Unfortunately, there were a number of Arabs living in that place, most of whom had migrated in in the 2,000 year interim. But, Palestine was a British colony, so the British could do whatever they wanted. They handed it over to the U.N. who divided it into two countries -- Israel, and Palestine. A number of Jewish immigrants moved to Israel and forced the native Arabs to move out. This turned into a war in which the Israeli Defense Force, with backing from the United Nations, the United States, and a number of other countries, occupied most of the territory that had been left for the Arabs.

In 1967, Israel engaged in a pre-emptive, supposedly defensive war against Egypt, Syria, Jordan, and the remainder of Palestine, again with United States backing. During this war it occupied the West Bank and the Gaza Strip (which they renamed, using the Biblical names of Judea and Samaria), the only parts of Palestine still left for Arabs to live in freely, along with Golan Heights (Syrian territory, previously uninvolved with the conflict) and the Sinai Peninsula (Egyptian Territory). During the 70's the Sinai and most of the Golan Heights were returned to their governments, but Palestinian territory was not, as Israel had ceased to recognize the Palestinian State.

After this, the Palestinian government became synonymous with the extremist terrorist organization PLO, which engaged in suicide bombings and other acts of terrorism against the Israeli people (it is important to note that PLO bombings killed, and continue to kill, both Jewish and Arabic Israeli citizens). In the late seventies, and again in 2000, the United States has tried to broker a peace deal between Palestine and Israel, once again offering the two-state solution considered intolerable by Palestinians, who feel that they have a right to the land which was ancestrally theirs for thousands of years. The Palestinian government has recognized the right of Jews to live in Palestine, but desire a single state solution not controlled by the Jewish religion. Whether they want a secular government or a Muslim government I don't know, but I suspect they would prefer a Muslim government.

Another problem not addressed by the two-state system is resources. Most proposed maps of the two-state solution show Israel having its pre-1967 territory plus several areas on the West Bank, with Palestine forming a small state in the remainder of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. However, this leaves most of the richest parts of the country, including many sources of water (an important consideration in the Eastern Mediterranean's arid climate) in Israeli hands, meaning the Palestinian state would be territorially divided (the Gaza Strip and the West Bank are not contiguous), poor, and requiring Israeli cooperation to survive.

At least, this is my understanding of the situation.

I...I think I love you in a non-gay way.

EDIT: Watched the second debate last night...I don't know why I keep watching these things, their foreign policy statements just make me mad.

----------------

Now playing: Bon Jovi - Wanted Dead Or Alive

via FoxyTunes

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The reason they invaded was because Egypt was sending para-military units into Israel for years and then retreating back, the Egyptian government did nothing to stop this and in fact was encouraging it. I could be wrong, but from what I read over a year ago when I was actually studying it, I thought the US had demanded the withdrawal of Israeli forces in Egypt?

That could definitely be true (about the Egyptian paramilitary units) -- I hadn't heard anything about it but I'll believe it.

I...I think I love you in a non-gay way.

EDIT: Watched the second debate last night...I don't know why I keep watching these things, their foreign policy statements just make me mad.

Yeah. US foreign policy is really depressing.

Also :wub: you too babe. Who are you?

None of them said anything last night really. D: But I liked Obama's tax on small business owners who don't give their workers health insurance.

Makes sense to me. Why make it small businesses? Big business has more money, let's tax that.

I was talking to one of my roommates who said he was gonna vote for Dino Rossi (WA Republican candidate for Governor) because Rossi said he wouldn't create any new taxes (which probably isn't even true, anyway) and my response was "Man, I don't mind paying more taxes if it means the government uses them for sane things." I mean, Rossi also wants to build thousands more highways all over Washington, a policy which doesn't make any sense, and I don't know how he's going to pay for them without more taxes...

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