Feminism

[margot]

This is so there are no more fights in RT.

Post your thoughts on feminism, women..uhh ect.

[James_xeno]

Good idea, I was thinking about making one of these myself. I have a lot to say on this topic.. But that'll have to come later, it's time for sleep now.. :sleep:

[margot]

Basically my thoughts are this:

Feminisim is such a big issue.

It's about the fact that most of shows on tv that show women in "powerful roles" show them as sexualized and manipulative ie, "Desperate Housewives."

It's about the fact that articles in magazines that tell women to be strong and independent are sandwiched in between ads for size three jeans and articles on how to complete their lives with lip gloss.

It's about the fact that in a heck of a lot of occupations, women don't make the same as men, and not because of overt conditions, but because there just isn't the societal oppertunities that support this. IE: day care or a supportive enviornment for a women going after a PHD who wants kids, too. Why should it have to be a choice? Men don't have to choose between a family and a passion.

Think about this. Most of our views on what are powerful, strong, sexy woman come from television or media: where does that come from? It's not a real representation of a scholar, a mother, a teacher, a daughter, who is also someone working: and even if they are, the the photos in the magazine are posed and the articles are edited for what will sell. The tv shows are garnered for ratings. We just generally don't have a good persepctive. I think it's pretty sad that sex appeal is needed to appeal to both males and females. We're worse in terms of cattiness. A lot of girls will say "I see these strong women, and it's like.. they want more than they deserve, they've been opressed, they want more." But.. how much of that is a combination of real life and how much of that is tv? If a male was doing that, you'd cite stress and mental health problems. If a female is doing that, it's feminism gone awry. How much do we normalize comments made to use on the streets? Why is it okay for someone to grab a woman's ass? I mean, I don't make a big deal, but why does it make you worth something more?

A female athlete's body is an anomoly, a male athlete's is a prize. If she's off the field, she's a freak.

Unless she's a fucking gymnast/ice skater puking her guts out.

I honestly don't want to live in a world where body image is this prevalent. Where this kind of junk is religion. Flame me for saying this, but if you think our society is a well functioning one, an equally gendered balanced one, you're lying. This backlash is created from an improper understanding. Thinking that equality somehow relates to superiorism. I don't want to some anti-feminine super-freak. I just want to be able to apply for a job in a mill, and get it. I want to make as much as a male in a business job. I want to watch women's hockey on tv.

[Ceraziefish]

Feminism recieves the presitigious Thumbs Up of Ceraziefish Award. It's cool.

[Samurai Drifter]

Feminism is okay until it starts to actively discriminate against males.

[Gundampilotspaz]

"Some scholars, notably Christina Hoff Sommers, a fellow at the American

Enterprise Institute, charge that misguided feminism is what's been hurting boys. In the 1990s, she says, girls were making strong, steady progress toward parity in schools, but feminist educators portrayed them as disadvantaged and lavished them with support and attention. Boys, meanwhile, whose rates of achievement had begun to falter, were ignored and their problems allowed to fester"

"Thirty years ago feminists argued that classic "boy" behaviors were a result of socialization, but these days scientists believe they are an expression of male brain chemistry. Sometime in the first trimester, a boy fetus begins producing male sex hormones that bathe his brain in testosterone for the rest of his gestation. "That exposure wires the male brain differently," says Arthur Arnold, professor of physiological science at UCLA. How? Scientists aren't exactly sure. New studies show that prenatal exposure to male sex hormones directly affects the way children play. Girls whose mothers have high levels of testosterone during pregnancy are more likely to prefer playing with trucks to playing with dolls. There are also clues that hormones influence the way we learn all through life. In a Dutch study published in 1994, doctors found that when males were given female hormones, their spatial skills dropped but their verbal skills improved.

In elementary-school classrooms—where teachers increasingly put an emphasis on language and a premium on sitting quietly and speaking in turn—the mismatch between boys and school can become painfully obvious. "Girl behavior becomes the gold standard," says "Raising Cain" coauthor Thompson. "Boys are treated like defective girls.""

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/10965522/site/newsweek/

[Kreutz]

[TeleportSandwich]

^I lol'd

[margot]

True Feminism isn't about putting women over men. It's about earning equality between both sexes. It's sad that people try to put the name "feminism" on supremist hate speech, and equally sad that some men and women feel threatened by all feminism and treat it like a joke.

[TeleportSandwich]

Its also sad when one person looks down on another person for thier political views (or lack thierof). :buki:

[margot]

What are you talking about?

[Gundampilotspaz]

True Feminism isn't about putting women over men. It's about earning equality between both sexes.

You see in the cases I put above that goal caused the system to go out of wack and favor women. Once again becoming off balance.

[margot]

You see in the cases I put above that goal caused the system to go out of wack and favor women. Once again becoming off balance.

But that's not true feminism. For it to be, schools would give both boys and girls adequate attention. Or even more favorably, since every child is different, adequate individual attention, though that's not so much feminism as wanting to improve the education system.

[Mithrandir]

Feminism is just the belief in gender equality (look it up in the dictionary).

People tend to confuse it with feminists with female-supremisists.

[Gundampilotspaz]

But that's not true feminism. For it to be, schools would give both boys and girls adequate attention. Or even more favorably, since every child is different, adequate individual attention, though that's not so much feminism as wanting to improve the education system.

The study is very interesting. If you can look for it on PBS.

But it was that goal that has caused the unbalance. Girls test scores in the early 70's were low, so teachers started focusing on ways to improve girls test scores. Over time girls scores went up, but those methods used hurt boys test scores.

The only thing I'm trying to say it, there is no way to win. Unless the sexs were devided. In that study it shows that single sex schools tend to yeild better results for both sexs.

[margot]

There are many ways to reach a goal, and of course something so radical won't be entirely succesful at first. I don't believe in division between the sexes for various reason..

[Gundampilotspaz]

There are many ways to reach a goal, and of course something so radical won't be entirely succesful at first. I don't believe in division between the sexes for various reason..

Socaially it will be negitive on some counts, but positive on others.

Take an all boys school that is set apart from women. There you have men teaching men and can clear up some gender stereotypes. In one of the examples they had the teacher talking about love to a room full of innercity boys. About how the word and feelings are acceptable. And that if you don't want to use the word then "Your my brother" means that you love that person.

It also showed proof that at the elementry and middle school age that kids benifit more from being taught by teachers of their gender. Boys and girls.

[margot]

I think it avoids dealing with actual issues and doesn't prepare children for the reality of the real world, as well as actually trying to find a solution to the problem.

[Venom112]

It's about the fact that articles in magazines that tell women to be strong and independent are sandwiched in between ads for size three jeans and articles on how to complete their lives with lip gloss.

That's how all products that alter the physical appearance work. If they didn't make everyone feel terrible about their bodies, they would never have their product sold.

Men don't have to choose between a family and a passion.

What? Yes, they do.

Why is it okay for someone to grab a woman's ass?

I'll just assume you know about sexual harassment laws and I'll move to a thought about society. Some women consider not to be a big deal, which is displayed by a playful punch to the person that just grabbed them, and this creates an ever increasing system where because of the lack of trangressions, the perpetrator will continue to think it is A-okay. And when others don't appreciate, then the person will think they are just overexaggerating. Also, it can be seen by the woman as being valued, which furthers the prospect that it "is okay."

Flame me for saying this, but if you think our society is a well functioning one, an equally gendered balanced one, you're lying.

All hail the mighty lawn, for it is our lord and savior! It shall be of a green coloring, and it shall be no higher than this height! Should you not follow the word of our mighty lord, our inquisitors shall strike down the excess and charged you shall be by the council. May your patch of nature create a block of shortly cut plains as far as the eyes can see. Amen.

I want to make as much as a male in a business job.

If it is any consolation, women make 113% what men make as bank tellers. Also, women excel far faster than men do in the business world.

It's sad that people try to put the name "feminism" on supremist hate speech, and equally sad that some men and women feel threatened by all feminism and treat it like a joke.

Speaking of which, a recent statistic published in Psychology Today found that 1/3 of women desire to return to gender roles from the days of old.

[margot]

That's how all products that alter the physical appearance work. If they didn't make everyone feel terrible about their bodies, they would never have their product sold.

Well, there's a branch of feminism that thinks women are required to be subordinate for capitalism to work, but I can't really comment on that because I'm a socialist and ideally this wouldn't even be an issue.

What? Yes, they do.

Men don't have to take extensive time off of school/work to have a child..And likewise most women are just expected to be the one who takes care of the child. I know you're going to go off as to how it's the woman's choice to stay home instead of having her husband do so, but many men just won't do that. And a lot of women don't make enough money to support a family on their own.. Yes, there's the daycare/nanny solution, but not when a baby is very young. And after that age, a lot of parents also have ill feelings towards leaving their child with strangers for 9 hours, 5 days a week..

I'll just assume you know about sexual harassment laws and I'll move to a thought about society. Some women consider not to be a big deal, which is displayed by a playful punch to the person that just grabbed them, and this creates an ever increasing system where because of the lack of trangressions, the perpetrator will continue to think it is A-okay. And when others don't appreciate, then the person will think they are just overexaggerating. Also, it can be seen by the woman as being valued, which furthers the prospect that it "is okay."

Perhaps occasionally in the work place a sexual harassment report will get a man on probation or something of the sort, but if a man grabs a woman's ass in public and the woman and goes to the police, what can really be done? Sexual harassment happens constantly. I won't even really comment on your other comments, just that it's sad that we live in a society where women find being objectified validating.

All hail the mighty lawn, for it is our lord and savior! It shall be of a green coloring, and it shall be no higher than this height! Should you not follow the word of our mighty lord, our inquisitors shall strike down the excess and charged you shall be by the council. May your patch of nature create a block of shortly cut plains as far as the eyes can see. Amen.

You can say what you want, but attitudes towards women and statistics show that society just isn't equal. Saying women are making too big of a deal or anything of the sort isn't going to make it better.

If it is any consolation, women make 113% what men make as bank tellers. Also, women excel far faster than men do in the business world.

I haven't heard that statistic before but even if it is true it pales in comparison to unequal wages are on average. And women may excel faster, but there are still very few women at the top of large corporations. Also, what is the consolation of getting a higher posistion if you're still not making equal wages as a lower posistioned man?

Speaking of which, a recent statistic published in Psychology Today found that 1/3 of women desire to return to gender roles from the days of old.

But feminism wants women to have their own choice. If a woman wants to be a housewife and raise three kids, that's great. If a woman wants to be a CEO, that's great, too.

[Venom112]

I know you're going to go off as to how it's the woman's choice to stay home instead of having her husband do so, but many men just won't do that.

That's too bad for the guy then, because it's a new millenium, and the times they are a changin'.

Perhaps occasionally in the work place a sexual harassment report will get a man on probation or something of the sort, but if a man grabs a woman's ass in public and the woman and goes to the police, what can really be done?

Depends upon the amount of evidence she has along with the perpetrator's past history.

I won't even really comment on your other comments, just that it's sad that we live in a society where women find being objectified validating.

Which brings us back to how makeup sells.

You can say what you want, but attitudes towards women and statistics show that society just isn't equal.

What are you talking about? I was giving another example of society's arbitrary problems.

Also, what is the consolation of getting a higher posistion if you're still not making equal wages as a lower posistioned man?

Well, the woman would actually be making more, so I guess you're right in that they wouldn't be equal.

But feminism wants women to have their own choice. If a woman wants to be a housewife and raise three kids, that's great. If a woman wants to be a CEO, that's great, too.

Once again I'm not quite sure what you're on about, as I was giving support to "...equally sad that some men and women feel threatened by all feminism..."

[margot]

That's too bad for the guy then, because it's a new millenium, and the times they are a changin'.

Right, and then the woman is left alone and with a baby to take care of.

Depends upon the amount of evidence she has along with the perpetrator's past history.

And most women just don't have any evidence because it's such a sudden crime with a one time perpetraitor.

Which brings us back to how makeup sells.

Maybe instead of putting the blame on women just trying to survive in the patriarch society, we should address the society.

Well, the woman would actually be making more, so I guess you're right in that they wouldn't be equal.

women in higher posistions still generally make less money than men in lower posistions, hence me reading a study that women with PHDs on average make the same amount of money men with associate degrees do. And don't go ranting that degrees don't have anything to do with posistion/money, because a lot of jobs will pay you more if you get a higher degree.

Once again I'm not quite sure what you're on about, as I was giving support to "...equally sad that some men and women feel threatened by all feminism..."

thumbs up.

[Kreutz]

Guys, I think Colin Farrell has something to say about this argument.

EDIT: If someone can make that work in an avatar size for me, I would be eternally grateful.